CHRIS MATTHEWS, host:
You know what we're going to try to do is find--you know, everybody tries to
do this in their head, they try to figure out, you know, it's not like a golf
green where there's--where you can see the little moves on the--on the grass
and you can sort of predict your ball where it's going to go. We've got a
mobile golf green coming up in this election next in the four months. What's
going to happen? We don't know what's going to happen.
Windfalls and landmines: there's still a long road to Election Day. What if
we catch bin Ladin? What if gas prices spike? If there's a big Iraq disaster
or a huge scandal?
My big fat vice presidency. Dick Cheney created the co-presidency. Does John
Kerry need a Cheney-sized number two?
How low can he go? If the president falls to far behind John Kerry before the
convention, will he dump Dick for a more delightful face?
All that and more with a roundtable of forecasters on your weekly news show.
Announcer: From Congress to the West Wing, he's been a Washington insider.
Now he's one of the Capital's top journalists, Chris Matthews.
MATTHEWS: Hi. I'm Chris Matthews. Welcome to the show. Let's go inside.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Profile: Katty Kay, BBC; Clarence Page, Chicago Tribune; Gloria
Borger, US News & World Report; John Harris, Washington Post
discuss the upcoming presidential election and Dick Cheney
CHRIS MATTHEWS, host:
Katty Kay covers Washington for the British Broadcasting Corporation.
Clarence Page is a Chicago Tribune columnist. Gloria Borger writes a column
for US News & World Report. And John Harris is a Washington Post political
reporter.
First up, windfalls and landmines. What can happen between now and Election
Day to change the course of the presidential race? Here are some prospects
that could help the president: Iraq calms down, jobs and stock prices head
up, Kerry stumbles, or we get another terror attack that rallies the country.
Gloria:
Ms. GLORIA BORGER (US News & World Report): Or we catch Osama bin Ladin,
Chris. And--whom some people say is sort of locked away in a cage somewhere
and is ready to come out in October as the October surprise. But I think
something like that, just as the capture of Saddam Hussein helped the
president of the United States, the capture of Osama bin Ladin would help this
president say, `We are winning the war on terror,' which is, of course, the
central point of his--of his re-election strategy.
MATTHEWS: Let me ask you, Katty, what that offer any condolence to people who
are losing lives--having family members lose their lives in Iraq?
Ms. KATTY KAY (Washington Correspondent BBC): Well, my sense with Iraq is
it's already getting better for the president, not withstanding the fact that
there's more violence over there. People are getting hardened to it here.
The latest opinion polls suggest that actually the more people hear about it,
the more they tolerate what's going on there. And, of course, the more now
it's been handed over to the Iraqis themselves, it doesn't seem such an
American problem anymore. So...
MATTHEWS: So if...
Ms. KAY: ...if Americans aren't getting killed and Iraqis are getting
killed, then there's more tolerance for it.
MATTHEWS: Agreed. That seems to be a reasonable, although brutal, projection
of American sympathies. But if we have something like a Beirut bombing that
we had in 1983, will that change your prediction?
Ms. KAY: If you have a Beirut bombing like you had in 1983 and a lot of
Americans are killed, 200 or so, then yes, it would change my prediction.
MATTHEWS: Does everyone agree with that, that this thing is calming down?
Ms. KAY: As it's going at the moment, I don't think it's looking so bad.
MATTHEWS: John, you covered this in the Post. The Post covers this a lot
there's been some great reporting on what's going on in Iraq. Do you think
it's calming down over there in terms of American casualties?
Mr. JOHN HARRIS (Washington Post): No. I think at any time it could--you
could have a sort of catastrophic event. I think that you're right, though,
the variable isn't casualties, it's a sense of control. Does the
administration have a plan? Are they fundamentally in control and, to some
degree, masters of events? Or are they simply improvising, and there is panic
and they're as confused as everyone else. Confusion...
MATTHEWS: Controlled pain is what you think will work, will get by the
electorate?
Mr. HARRIS: I do think if there's a sense that, `Look, this is the strategy
and we're following it. There may be some difficulties, but basically we have
a plan for--for keeping events under control.' That's very reassuring.
Ms. KAY: I think...
Mr. HARRIS: And that does not necessarily link to how many casualties there
are on one day or another.
Ms. KAY: In four months after handing over to the Iraqis, I think the
administration here will be able to say, `This is now an Iraqi problem. It's
much more of the Iraqi government's problem and less of an American problem.'
MATTHEWS: I'm not so optimistic. I think it's a bleeding situation, and
bleeding has to stop at some point.
Clarence, let's talk about jobs. The numbers, I think, are part of the story.
Certainly they're going down, but what about the people out there killing
themselves to get seven bucks an hour...
Mr. CLARENCE PAGE (Chicago Tribune): Right.
MATTHEWS: ...working 40 hours a week and coming up with nothing. It's a hard
lot out there because of free trade and everything else that's going on, isn't
it?
Mr. PAGE: Yeah. As we all know, economics is a matter of perceptions, which
play right into politics. Now, the Bush Administration has made up about a
million jobs of that two million deficit. However, the public isn't feeling
it yet. Judging by the polling and the focus groups and a general sense of
how the country is going. The late Bob Teeter used to say that it takes about
four months for an economic change to really hit the electorate. Bush has
enough time if people can perceive that, but the new jobs that are coming
don't pay as well as the old jobs.
MATTHEWS: Right.
Ms. BORGER: Right.
Mr. PAGE: Kerry still has something to talk about here.
MATTHEWS: That's the key. Everybody talks about the jobless number. People
with good jobs getting good pay. Look at the jobless numbers. Hey, great,
it's going down to five or it's getting close to five. What about the person
who used to--thought he should be making 15 or more, and you're getting half
that amount and they're working just as hard and as many hours away from their
family.
Ms. BORGER: Right.
MATTHEWS: Are they going to vote Republican?
Ms. BORGER: Well, they might. But the big story is that the new jobs are
just not as good as the old jobs. And I think that's a story that the
Democrats are going to be talking about. Also, Chris, quite frankly, people
have to admit that some of these manufacturing jobs are just not going to come
back.
MATTHEWS: You tell that to the people.
Ms. BORGER: Well, exactly. A state--a state like Ohio which is a
battleground state, 200,000 people have lost their jobs. Are those jobs
coming back?
Mr. PAGE: That's right.
MATTHEWS: Let's talk about opposition research. You've got to believe that
Carl Rove and the other guys down at the White House, in the campaign to
re-elect this president are looking around for things that if it gets close,
they can knock Kerry off with. Does anybody have a sense--is there any way to
measure the possibility of something popping up that blows Kerry right off the
map?
Mr. PAGE: Oh...
Ms. KAY: We already had the one incident, the gossip that was going on
around...
MATTHEWS: The Kenyan, which was pretty much debunked.
Ms. KAY: ...about the intern who was out in Kenya and of course that was
debunked and she denied it. That didn't seem to catch fire, and Kerry
withstood that very solidly. He didn't waver at all which gave--he gave the
impression that he was pretty confident that there wasn't much out there, I
thought, during that whole episode. He didn't seem to be like a man who was
on the defensive.
Mr. PAGE: I think Kerry has a bigger problem that this late in the campaign
so many people say they really don't know who he is. He hasn't had that kind
of a powerful theme to his campaign, or projected that sort of larger than
life personality...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Mr. PAGE: ...that helped Bill Clinton in the past.
MATTHEWS: To withstand these things. In other words, a little bit of bad
wind could hurt this guy.
Mr. PAGE: That's right. Although the Bush folks have been trying hard,
spending millions on attack ads that haven't had a whole lot of power so far.
MATTHEWS: Well, I think that's true.
Ms. BORGER: I think they have had it. Don't you think they have had an
impact?
MATTHEWS: Do you think that flip-flop thing has hurt that much?
Ms. BORGER: I think the flip-flop thing has hurt him. What does he stand
for? Even Democrats are asking what he stands for. It was a Republican ad
that said he's a serial flip-flopper. We don't know what he stands for.
Mr. PAGE: And with all that, Kerry was still running even or ahead of Bush
before the Reagan funeral. So I don't think it's effective. That's good news
for Bush.
Ms. BORGER: Don't forget that during the primaries, though, he was the
default candidate.
MATTHEWS: Right.
Ms. BORGER: When everybody else fell apart, there was John Kerry still
standing because he looked presidential, right?
MATTHEWS: Well, the president hits enough landmines, that'll matter, but if
he doesn't hit enough landmines, it doesn't matter.
Ms. BORGER: Right.
MATTHEWS: Let's talk about the landfalls and the windmines--the windfalls
that may affect the John Kerry campaign. More Iraq chaos and targeting of US
troops. What we were talking about, a stall in new job creation, gas prices
spike through the roof, a damning 9/11 final report, scandals on the
president's side or a big terror attack that shows that President Bush and his
team have weakness. Gloria:
Ms. BORGER: Yeah, all of that obviously could help Kerry, and I think he's
going to play up his so-called leak investigation, you know, inside the White
House.
MATTHEWS: Why do you say so-called?
Ms. BORGER: Well, it is--all right, no, a leak investigation.
MATTHEWS: There's two of them going on right now...
Ms. BORGER: OK. Right.
MATTHEWS: ...both of them involving potential felonies.
Ms. BORGER: A leak investigation.
MATTHEWS: One involving Joe Wilson's wife, the CIA undercover agent. And
number two, this whole question about who told the Iranian government the
United States had broken their code. Serious business here.
Ms. BORGER: Serious, serious business.
MATTHEWS: Under the law it's serious business.
Ms. BORGER: This administration was dealing with Chalabi. He was--he
was--he was their guy, and there are questions about where this leak came from
of this name of this covert operative. Whether it came from the president,
the vice president's office, we don't know. Those are big deals.
Mr. HARRIS: I think that's already been a huge factor. I think there's a
general consensus the president's team's been a little off their game for much
of this year. I think that leak investigation is a big reason. It is no fun
having to go to your lawyer's office and practice your grand jury testimony.
It's as--different than the Clinton...
MATTHEWS: You're talking about the CIA leak.
Mr. BORGER: Mm-hmm.
Mr. HARRIS: Yeah. And all--lots of important people are at least being
questioned on that. Even if they're not guilty or none of them are charged,
that is a huge cloud, and that makes your day difficult.
Mr. PAGE: Don't look for a special prosecutor law anymore.
Mr. HARRIS: And I think that part of the reason is--makes people feel off
their game.
MATTHEWS: Katty:
Ms. KAY: I think there is another thing that could help John Kerry and that
is this issue of security. That if Americans start feeling that they are not
safer abroad, and it's a very difficult question for him to address, this
whole issue of safety, because actually until now Bush has done well on the
patriotism issue and the national security issue. But I think if we start
seeing Americans, as we've seen in Saudi Arabia or seen in Iraq, being
kidnapped or Americans start getting tied up in events like the Madrid
bombing, for example...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Ms. KAY: ...then I think that will start making think--people think,
actually the level that anti-Americanism that is abroad is starting to hurt
us, that we are feeling less safe, that our--our contractors, our troops, our
citizens are less safe abroad because of this...
MATTHEWS: How come Kerry hasn't used that issue that we're hated abroad more
than ever?
Ms. KAY: I think it's a very hard one for him to address because of Bush's
numbers on national security and because he doesn't want to be seen as
unpatriotic.
MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about the big, bad story. And obviously, if we have
a tragedy in this country caused by terrorism, in itself it's more important
in human terms than any political fallout. but let's look at it, what would
happen. In--you mentioned in Madrid in Spain before the general election
there and that turned the people against the government, against the war with
Iraq.
What would be, Clarence, you're the most mature person at the panel here.
Mr. PAGE: Is that you saying I'm old, Chris?
MATTHEWS: Yeah. Which way does the American people go when they see a big--a
big--do they say, `No, it's time to rally around the president. He was right
about the danger of terrorism?'
Mr. PAGE: Normally.
MATTHEWS: Or do they say, `Get your act together. We need a change here.'
What do they say?
Mr. PAGE: Normally the old slogan about, you know, don't change horses in
midstream takes place. However, the problem with Spain wasn't the terror
attack, it was the sense that the government had not been truthful...
Ms. KAY: Right.
Mr. PAGE: ...with the public, and that's where Bush...
MATTHEWS: On what issue?
Mr. PAGE: Truthful in regards to the--they wanted to blame it on the Basques
at first. You know, the Basque separatists, and then turns out it was
al-Qaeda. And just within days, you saw the pollings just flip, and the
government was toppled. President Bush--this is why Bush and Cheney have been
so defensive about the matter of the 9/11 commission and it's--it's
dismantling that link between Saddam and 9/11.
MATTHEWS: And because this time, if there's a second time, it'll be a second
strike against them. There may not be a third strike against them, in
baseball terms, but for a while there we thought of--like Condi Rice said, `We
never could've imagined an airplane being used as a missile.' Well, now we
know some people could imagine it.
Mr. PAGE: Right.
MATTHEWS: And they didn't have--they didn't do anything about it. So, my
hunch is--my hunch, does everybody agree that because of the power of the 9/11
commission, a second strike against the United States will hurt the
administration more?
Ms. BORGER: I--I actually do think it will hurt the administration more. I
think people will say, `You've had a lot of time to plan for this.' You
disagree.
Ms. KAY: I--I...
Ms. BORGER:: I think that it could...
Ms. KAY: I still think that that rallying factor...
MATTHEWS: You think it's going to help the president, bad news.
Mr. HARRIS: There are certain facts and numbers in politics that don't go
away and they still haven't gone away with everything bad.
Democrat--Republicans have a 20-30 point advantage...
MATTHEWS: In terrorism.
Mr. HARRIS: ...on the security issue and that's in Democratic polling, and
it's still there after everything.
Ms. KAY: There's a strong, emotional desire after the county's been hit in
that kind of way to rally around something.
Ms. BORGER: Immediately, immediately.
Ms. KAY: To find something that gives you solace
Ms. BORGER: But--but Katty, I think that happens right away, but I think
given what we've gone through and given the fact that the Democrats are
talking about homeland security--you haven't given enough money to first
responders...
Ms. KAY: But look at how long it's taken the 9/11 commission...
Ms. BORGER: ...you're not guarding the coast.
Ms. KAY: ...to come out with all of this information.
Ms. BORGER: Right.
Ms. KAY: It would take a very long time after a second attack to come out
with the relevant information that came back and said, `Actually, that there
were dots that could've been connected or things that could've been done.' I
think that would only come out...
Ms. BORGER: I think the...
Ms. KAY: ...that information would only come out afterwards.
Ms. BORGER: I think the public will be split. I think initially...
Mr. PAGE: That's going to be true, anyway.
MATTHEWS: There's a nervy prediction.
Anyway, I'll be right back with some talk about this new supersized vice
presidency. Look at this guy. Does Kerry want to pick a Democratic Dick
Cheney that big? And could Bush push Cheney's--Cheney's eject button if he
falls far behind Kerry? Maybe dump this guy. We're going to stick around and
talk about that one.
Announcer: Today's show is brought to you by...
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MATTHEWS: The vice president's office, more powerful than ever. Stick
around.
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(Clip from NBC's "Tonight Show," October 31, 2003)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back. That was Jay Leno poking fun at Dick Cheney's
immense power in the Bush White House.
Much more than your usual VP, right, Gloria?
Ms. BORGER: Oh yeah. I mean, the power behind the throne, obviously. You
know...
MATTHEWS: Who's the power behind the throne? Bush or Cheney? Which one?
Ms. BORGER: Cheney--well. Cheney.
MATTHEWS: OK.
Ms. BORGER: You know. Cheney is the hardliner. He's the enforcer in the
White House. He's the guy who fired Secretary O'Neill, former treasury
secretary. He's the guy whispering in the president's ear about intelligence
on Iraq. I think the president depends on him, and I think that's the way
Cheney likes it, and he says, `I am never running for political office again.
I am devoted to the president and his agenda, and he knows it. And that's why
the relationship works.
MATTHEWS: But there's another piece of it. He's a little bit further out,
almost the way that Bobby Kennedy was pretty further out than Jack Kennedy.
He's out there as a more hawkish fellow. He's the one saying there was
weapons of mass destruction pretty much all along, pushing the nuclear part of
it all through the buildup to the war. He's the one who even struck with his
interview with you a few weeks ago, sticking to the fact there's some sort
of--some sort of Iraq connection to 9/11, although it's smokey and hard to
read.
Ms. BORGER: Yeah, I mean, I know.
MATTHEWS: The president wants him there, I guess.
Ms. BORGER: He doesn't back down. I mean, this--this is a man who, I think,
feels under assault. He feels that his credibility's been under assault with
the 9/11 commission report. He did not give an inch on all of those
questions, even though the commission disagreed with him and said they found
no credible evidence that there was any collaborative relationship between
al-Qaeda and Iraq.
Ms. KAY: Gloria, is that his character or is that the privilege, in a sense,
of not trying to run for office again? Can he stick to his positions
dogmatically no matter what the 9/11 commission is saying?
Ms. BORGER: But he is running. He is.
Ms. KAY: But he's not--he's not running for the presidency. He's not
wanting to take that over. Is that--is that why he can do that? He's not
aiming for a higher position?
Ms. BORGER: You know, that's what he says, but these are political people
and obviously he wants the president to get re-elected and he doesn't want to
supply the president with bad information or bad advice. And I think that's
why he's been so defensive about this...
Ms. KAY: That...
Ms. BORGER: ...because he believes he's giving the president the best advice
he possibly can. He always also makes the point that it is the president who
makes the final decision, not the vice president.
Mr. HARRIS: I thought some of the most interesting parts of Bob Woodward's
book...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Mr. HARRIS: ...were about how Cheney views Bush. He says, `I admire this
guy. He doesn't listen to the pundits. He doesn't listen to the Washington
chattering class.'
MATTHEWS: Right.
Mr. HARRIS: No offense to us, here. And at the same time express contempt
for Colin Powell because Powell is a creature for this. I think Cheney's
historical impact is to push the accelerator on that part of Bush that sort of
wants to be contemptuous of the--of the commentators, of the critics, of the
second guessers.
Mr. PAGE: And that's why that book is recommended on both the Kerry Web site
and the Bush/Cheney Web site.
Mr. HARRIS: That's right.
Mr. PAGE: Because it does push the idea that Bush is really in charge. But
Cheney is a guy who, first of all, he's got the managerial experience. He's
been through the first Gulf War, etc., etc. He's also a pipeline for George
W. into the neocons and the cultural conservatives who love his wife...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Mr. PAGE: ...Lynn Cheney, a committed monoculturalist, against those of us
who want to bring Chinua Achebe into...
MATTHEWS: Let's talk about the co-presidency as a phenomenon. Back in the
1970s, 1980 Republican Convention, remember how former President Gerald Ford
talked about a co-presidency.
Ms. BORGER: Oh, right.
MATTHEWS: He said to the Reagan people, `I'd like to be able to pick a
secretary of defense and a secretary of state. I'd like to pick secretary of
treasurer. I want to put Greenspan in there. I want to put Kissinger back in
state.' And Reagan said, `He's talking about that outside? Out loud?' Is
Cheney's trick that he keeps his power implicit, not explicit?
Ms. BORGER: Yeah, absolutely. He keeps his advice private. Nobody knows
where his fingerprints are on things. But we all have to assume they're all
over everything.
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Ms. BORGER: You know, it's been a natural progression in this country, I
think starting with Walter Mondale because I think Mondale was sort of a
transformational vice president. And then I think he ratcheted up the
roles...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Ms. BORGER: ...with Dan Quayle, maybe, being an exception, but I do believe
that this is a vice president with more authority than I've ever seen.
Ms. KAY: And the fact that he keeps it privates means that the Republicans
can come say, `Well, no, of course Bush is in charge. Where is the--where is
the evidence that it's Cheney that's doing everything?'
MATTHEWS: I want to remind everybody, the vice president under the
Constitution, Clarence and I were talking about this, has no executive
authority. He's simply the presiding officer of the US Senate when he chooses
to do that, and secondly, he succeeds the president when that becomes
necessary. He has no authority, but there he was at 9/11 ordering planes shot
down.
Ms. KAY: Apparently he was...
MATTHEWS: That's kind of interesting.
Anyway, next up: How low can he go? Cheney. If Bush falls way behind Kerry
before the Republican Convention in New York, will he dump Dick? Let's go to
the Matthews Meter on that question. Here's what our 12 had to say. Eight
see no way, no chance that Bush will dump Cheney no matter what. Four predict
that in dire straights, he will.
Katty, are you one of the dire straights people?
Ms. KAY: I think. I am one of the dire straights people because the
question was if he was in double digits behind. I could see a situation where
if he really did fall 15, 20 points behind. Which, actually, I can't envision
that situation itself. But were Bush to be 15, 20 points behind, I could see
a situation where...
MATTHEWS: OK.
Ms. KAY: ...for health reasons, Mr. Cheney might go.
MATTHEWS: Any of the scandals we talked about on the show tonight, any of the
lead scandals that get anywhere near Cheney would be--would that be
destructive, Clarence?
Mr. PAGE: Well, could be. It's hard to predict how just far this can go.
We don't have a special prosecutor these days, and we've got a Republican
Congress.
MATTHEWS: Right.
Mr. PAGE: So, they're somewhat iso-insulated in that way. But I don't Bush
is going to make that change because number one, loyalty is a hallmark of
George W. Bush.
MATTHEWS: Right.
Mr. PAGE: And number two, too much uncertainty and picking somebody else.
Who's going to replace him, and is it really going to hurt or help more?
MATTHEWS: He doesn't have a replacement for him.
I'll be right back with some hot scoops from our roundtable. I hope they all
do it, tell me something I don't know. Stick around.
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Chris,
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MATTHEWS: So welcome back, Katty, and tell me something I don't know.
Ms. KAY: Well, this is a subject I'm usually a real pessimist on, Chris, but
in honor of Independence Day I'm going to be an optimist.
MATTHEWS: Our independence from you.
Ms. KAY: In the honor of your independence from us. After we've--now we've
handed back power to the Iraqis...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Ms. KAY: ...I think we might see a slight decline in anti-Americanism around
Europe. I don't think around the Middle East, but I think you might in that
popular anti-Americanism that we've seen so vehemently in anti--in Europe over
the last year or two, I think we might...
MATTHEWS: So, they're going to buy it.
Ms. KAY: Right.
MATTHEWS: That we're really turning it over to somebody else.
Ms. KAY: I think it will be now seen as Iraq's problem.
MATTHEWS: It can only be good news.
Clarence.
Mr. PAGE: Well, indeed--indeed that's right.
And i well, this could be a double-barrel something you don't know, Chris.
First of all, the...
MATTHEWS: How British of you to say double-barrel.
Mr. PAGE: Double-barrel! The first barrel, the USDA has reclassified frozen
french fries as a fresh vegetable.
MATTHEWS: Oh.
Mr. PAGE: And this was a upheld by a court recently, and this will lead,
number two, to a revival...
MATTHEWS: You are talking about freedom fries, I assume.
Mr. PAGE: Freedom--what--what we were calling freedom fries this time last
year...
MATTHEWS: Remember that? That didn't last long.
Ms. KAY: I prefer just...
Mr. PAGE: Right.
MATTHEWS: What's the second barrel? Sir. The second barrel, sir.
Mr. PAGE: Fresh battered--I'm sorry, french frozen battered fries are now
classified as a fresh vegetable by the USDA. This will lead to a revival of a
move to move all nutritional authority from the USDA over to HHS. Watch for
that before the year is out.
MATTHEWS: Dangerous.
Go ahead, Gloria.
Ms. BORGER: Oh my god.
Well, as you all know, I think, the Senate Intelligence Committee is about to
come out with a really blockbuster report on the question of why we didn't
know more about the weapons of mass destruction. Supposed to come out right
before the Democratic Convention. Big problems on the horizons. Big fights
between the committee Republicans and the CIA, which is scrubbing this report
so hard that the people on that committee are saying, `We want the truth out,'
and it could delay the report even into the month of August.
MATTHEWS: What's the bad news here for who?
Ms. BORGER: Well, the Democrats would like that report out right before the
Democratic nomination.
MATTHEWS: Does it show skullduggery about WMD false advertising?
Ms. BORGER: Well, it shows an ineffectual CIA.
MATTHEWS: OK, let me hear from John Harris.
Mr. HARRIS: The Olympic Games are usually a big thing and a good thing for
presidents seeking re-election. They're unifying. This year they will not.
The Athens Games are going to feature so much anti-Americanism and so many
security problems, they're going to contribute to the sense that the world is
hurtling out of control.
MATTHEWS: Not another Munich, I hope. Not another Munich.
Mr. HARRIS: No. I hope not, but I don't see them being a good thing at all.
MATTHEWS: OK. Great to have you all. Great roundtable. Katty Kay, Clarence
Page, Gloria Borger and John Harris.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Sign-off: The Chris Matthews Show
CHRIS MATTHEWS, host:
That's our show. Thanks for watching. I'll see you here next week.
