KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: still running.
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
We don’t anoint kings in America. We have elections.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Nikki Haley tells me why she’s staying in the race and fighting against the odds.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you think Donald Trump would follow the Constitution if he were elected to a second term?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I don’t know.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Plus: delay tactics. The Supreme Court agrees to hear Donald Trump's presidential immunity argument delaying his criminal trial in the election interference case.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
They have to do the immunity thing because if you don’t a president will not be able to be president.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How many of Trump's criminal cases will go to trial before election day? And: uncommitted. Democrats in Michigan vote in protest of President Biden’s handling of the war in Gaza.
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
It is raw and it is genuine pain that people are in.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What does it mean for November? I'll ask Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell of Michigan. And Steve Kornacki previews the challenges ahead. Plus: exit plan. 82-year-old Senator Mitch McConnell announces he’s stepping down as Republican leader this fall.
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
It's time for the next generation of leadership.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Capitol Hill Correspondent Ali Vitali, Geoff Bennett, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour, María Teresa Kumar, president of Voto Latino and Marc Short, former chief of staff to Vice President Mike Pence. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history. This is Meet the Press, with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. Super Tuesday is just 48 hours away, is this Nikki Haley's last stand? And could this be the beginning of the general election? Fifteen states cast their votes in Republican nominating contests on Tuesday, the biggest primary day of the election season with 865 delegates at stake, more than a third of the delegates in the Republican race. Now, Nikki Haley has lost eight of the first eight contests, struggling to match the 43% of the vote she won in New Hampshire. On Saturday, she lost caucuses in three more states: in Missouri, where former President Donald Trump won every county; Idaho, where Trump swept all 32 of the state's delegates. Trump also won the caucuses in Michigan, after winning the primary there earlier this week.
[START TAPE]
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
If you look at the early states, he may have won them, yes. But he didn't get 40% of the vote. That's no small number.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We will win big on Super Tuesday, and this November, Virginia is going to tell Crooked Joe Biden, "You're fired. You're fired."
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Haley is now dialing back expectations, telling me her goal on Tuesday is a, quote, "Competitive showing against Donald Trump," not necessarily to win states. Haley also weighing in on the Supreme Court's decision to hear arguments over Mr. Trump's claim that he's immune from criminal prosecution for allegedly trying to overturn the 2020 election.
[START TAPE]
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I think you need to have the Supreme Court settle this. I don't think that a president should be immune from anything. I think that a president has to live under laws too.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Should Trump's classified document case go to trial, do you think, before November?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I think all of the cases should be dealt with before November. We need to know what's going to happen before it -- before the presidency happens. Because after that, should he become president, I don't think any of it's going to get heard.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Now, Trump weighed in on his legal battles at a rally in Virginia last night.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
It's really impossible for me to get a fair trial in DC but that's okay. Don't worry. I don't know what's gonna happen. I really don't. But it's all gonna work out. We're going to come out so good. A lot more popular than I ever was because of these people.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Trump leads Biden right now by five points, 48% to 43% in a new poll of registered voters from the New York Times and Siena College. And there is an enthusiasm gap. Just 23% of Democratic primary voters say they feel enthusiastic if Biden is the Democratic nominee, as expected. That's half of the number of Republicans enthusiastic about Trump. Joining us for more on what this week's results in Michigan say about a potential Trump-Biden rematch and for a reality check on Haley's path on Super Tuesday is NBC News Political Correspondent Steve Kornacki. Steve, break it all down for us.
STEVE KORNACKI:
Yeah, Kristen. Well, look, all eyes were on Michigan this week, obviously for the primary but also because it will be a important – maybe the pivotal – state in the general election, if it is, indeed, a Trump-Biden rematch. Take a look here. We're giving you the states as they went in 2020 in the Trump-Biden election. If you reran them – remember, the states have different electoral count votes now. Some of them, at least, do. If you reran 2020, Biden would now start out with 303, Trump with 235. But how did Biden win in 2020? Remember, he flipped five states that Donald Trump had carried in 2016. That was Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Georgia and Arizona. So, if Trump has a path back to the White House, it probably goes through those five states. Now, take a look. In terms of underscoring the importance of Michigan and those three Midwest states, if you start with Georgia and Arizona, they were the two closest in 2020. So, let's say, just for the sake of showing you this, that Trump is somehow able to flip those states. If he were to get Georgia, if he were to get Arizona, he would still be short of 270. And that would bring you to those Midwest states. And he would need to flip one of them in this scenario to get over 270. You can see if he were to get Michigan here, then he'd be over 270. So, any Trump path back to the White House, he's going to have to win back at least one of those three Midwest states. And Michigan could actually end up being his best shot at it. You take a look at those primary results this week. As you mentioned, Trump here, more than 40 points ahead of Nikki Haley. He does win every county in the state. You do see about a quarter of the vote there not going to Trump, but take that with a grain of salt. Remember, open primary in Michigan: Democrats could vote, Republicans could vote in the Republican primary. Some evidence that there's a fair number of Democrats and independents who've been coming into these primaries just because they want to vote against Donald Trump. But if you looked inside these counties, you would see what we've known for a while now. Donald Trump's biggest vulnerability, his softest support is in the suburbs, particularly suburbs with high concentrations of white voters with college degrees, affluent white voters, a place like Oakland County, just north of Michigan. Gigantic white-collar, suburban county. Joe Biden had carried this by almost 15 points in 2020. Trump did win it in this primary, but he did worse there than he did statewide. That's the kind of county he may have some trouble in in the fall. If Biden's going to win Michigan again, Biden's going to do it by driving up big numbers in places like Oakland County. Now, let's take a look at Joe Biden on the Democratic side. Again, he gets more than 80% of the vote in this week's primary and a lot of attention on the uncommitted vote. About 100,000 votes here. You see, there was an effort from activists to make this a protest vote against Biden's handling of Israel and Hamas. But take this with a grain of salt, too. You see those 100,000 votes – uncommitteds – on the Michigan ballot every four years in these primaries. Even Barack Obama, 2012, unopposed, running for reelection, uncommitted got over 10% of the vote against him. So, in terms of the actual number of voters who are out there protesting Biden on the Israel-Hamas issue who might stay home, might not vote for him in November, you're probably talking about a very, very small number. Of course, very, very close election. A very small number, in that situation, could matter here. So, take a look here, though. This is all, as we say, assuming that Nikki Haley does not pull off the mother of all political miracles on Tuesday, because right now, here's the Republican race. You see the delegate count: Trump, by a 10-to-1 margin, leading Nikki Haley. And you see what's going to come up Tuesday. Let me call those up. These are all the states and all the results we've had so far. But let's call up the big one, Super Tuesday here, and just take a look at this map. And I think you'll see the challenge Haley faces. Here's all the states. And, you know, you start. It's the map, and it's the rules. California, you would think, is a great state for Nikki Haley. Closed primary. Independents can't vote. Democrats can't vote. And it's winner take all. If Trump just gets 50% plus one, he gets all 169 delegates out of California. A lot of states that are like that. Alabama's essentially a winner take all. Arkansas's essentially a winner take all here. Texas is, at the statewide level, essentially winner take all, as well. They also give out votes by congressional district, but if you look at those districts, they really look friendly to Trump. The bottom line for Nikki Haley, when you look at this map: 40%'s not going to cut it. Unless she's winning states – winning multiple states on Tuesday – she's going to get buried in a delegate avalanche, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just a fascinating breakdown. Steve Kornacki, thank you so much for that. Well, I sat down with Ambassador Haley and began by asking her whether she can still win the nomination given that uphill battle she faces.
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I think we push hard. I think we fight. You're going to have 16 states and territories that are voting on Tuesday. And so, a lot of people's voices are going to be heard. And that's what this has all been about. You've only had three or four states that have voted up until now. We're a big country, and we want everybody to feel like they had the opportunity to vote for someone and not just against someone. And I think that's the biggest thing we hear, is people are so desperate for normal. And that's what we want to give them is normal.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about Super Tuesday. If you wake up on Wednesday and you haven't won anywhere, and that's an if, would you then need to make the decision that it's time to drop out of the race?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I've always said this needs to be competitive. As long as we are competitive, as long as we are showing that there is a place for us, I'm going to continue to fight. That's always been the case.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Would you see yourself as competitive if you didn't win on Super Tuesday, any state?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Well, usually, you all are the ones that decide what's competitive and what's not. So, you know, you all decided whether I was competitive in Iowa, or New Hampshire, or South Carolina, so we're going to continue to just keep pushing through. I don't look too far ahead. I look at, "What do the American people want?" If 70% of Americans say they don't want Donald Trump or Joe Biden, that's not a small number. If 30 to 40% of all these early states have said they want to vote for the direction of where we want to take the country, that's not a small number. And so, that's why we continue to push forward.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But would it be tough for you to make the argument to stay in this race if you don't win anywhere on Super Tuesday?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Well, first, let's see what happens on Super Tuesday. I don't like to look at what ifs or hypotheticals. I think we always have to live in the moment. They didn't think we'd make it to Iowa, and we came 1% from second. They said we were going to be 30 points down in New Hampshire. We got 43%. They didn't think that it would be between me and Trump in the end, and it is. So, I think we just keep going and looking and saying, "What else can we do? How many more people can we touch, and what message can we continue to give?"
KRISTEN WELKER:
Based on what you're saying, Ambassador, are you prepared to stay in this through the convention? Is that your plan?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
If the people want to see me go forward, they'll show it. They'll show it in their votes. They'll show it in their donations. They'll show it in the fact that they want us to continue to go forward. This is about really trying to get everyone to realize that this primary isn't between Donald Trump and Nikki Haley. Yes, on the ballot, that's what you see. This primary is, "What is the direction of the Republican Party?" Are we going to go where – you had Donald Trump, he grew government. He didn't reduce the size of government. He put us $8 trillion in debt in just four years, more than any other president. And you're saying a Republican Party follow him into that wasteful spending, not talking about fiscal discipline. This is about Donald Trump, who believes that you should be more of an isolationist, that America doesn't need friends. That's his focus. My focus is we need to start respecting taxpayer dollars. We need to reduce the size of government. We need to put those resources more in the hands of the people. We need to start focusing on getting our kids reading again. We need to secure our borders and be a country of law and order. And we believe in peace through strength, which means our focus is to prevent war. That's two very different Republican Parties.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You're laying this out in very stark terms. It sounds like, from your perspective, this is a battle for the Republican Party. You've been sharpening your attacks against former President Trump. Everyone has noticed in recent days, in recent weeks. Have you taken the prospect, the possibility of endorsing him off the table at this point?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
It's not anything I think about. What I have said is –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But is it off the table, Ambassador? It sounds like you are in a different place. Are people misinterpreting what you're saying? Have you moved to a place where you're no longer planning to endorse him?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Well, I think, first of all, if you talk about an endorsement, you're talking about a loss. I don't think like that. When you're in a race, you don't think about losing. You think about continuing to go forward. What I can tell you is: I don't think Donald Trump or Joe Biden should be president. I don't think that we need two candidates in their 80s. I don't think we want a Joe Biden, who calls his opponents fascists or a Donald Trump, who calls his opponents vermin. No one wants that. I think people want a new generational leader that is going to go back to what the American dream is, what we want for our kids, and a place that's something that we can be proud of again.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me try it this way. You did sign a pledge, an RNC pledge –
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– to support the eventual nominee. Do you still feel bound by that pledge?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I have always said that I have serious concerns about Donald Trump. I have even more concerns about Joe Biden.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, is that a no? Are you bound by the RNC pledge?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
The RNC pledge – I mean, at the time of the debate, we had to take it to where, "Would you support the nominee," and in order to get on that debate stage, you said yes. The RNC is now not the same RNC. Now, it's –
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, you're no longer –
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
– Trump's daughter-in-law.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– bound by that pledge?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
No, I think I'll make what decision I want to make. But that's not something I'm thinking about. And I think that while you all think about that, I'm looking at the fact that we had thousands of people in Virginia. We're headed to North Carolina. We're going to continue to go to Vermont and Maine and all these states to go and show people that there is a path forward. And so, I don't look at what ifs. I look at, "How do we continue the conversation?"
KRISTEN WELKER:
You know, it's interesting. Chris Christie was asked why he didn't endorse you when he dropped out. He said because he thought you would endorse Donald Trump. But it sounds like what you're saying is that you're leaning against endorsing Donald Trump. Can you just put a little bit of clarity? Are you leaning against endorsing Donald Trump at this point?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I truly am not thinking about any of that. And, you know, I mean, look, there's –
KRISTEN WELKER:
You're not taking it off the table?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
There's a huge difference between me and Chris Christie. Chris Christie ran because he just didn't want Trump.I am running because it's not about Trump. I voted for him twice. I was proud to serve America in his administration. This is not a Never Trump movement. This is the fact that I see America going into a bad direction: One that's going off a fiscal cliff; one where our kids don't think they're ever going to be able to afford a home; one where we've got only 31% of eighth graders in our country reading; one where we have a ridiculously open border; and one where we're about to fall into war if we don't go forward. I think that's dangerous. I think that's not what Americans want. And that's what I'm trying to say is, "We need to stop this direction and go in a new direction where we can be safe and healthy, economic freedom – freedom of all types – so that we can have Americans that feel like they have a government working for them again."
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. I want to ask you about January 6th. It's been in the headlines again because the Supreme Court has now said it is going to take up the immunity case as it relates to former President Trump. As you may recall, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, who said he's now leaving his leadership post, said that Donald Trump was, quote, "practically and morally responsible" for January 6th, for the attack on the Capitol. Without weighing into the legality, do you agree with Mitch McConnell? Was Donald Trump practically and morally responsible?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Well, first of all, I think if you look at what happened on January 6th, I have said it was a terrible day. It is not a beautiful day. But, I’ve also, you know, I look at the fact that you had a lot of Americans going out there doing what we're blessed in this country to do: freedom of speech, freedom to say what they want to say. What went terribly wrong is the fact that we saw complete lawlessness going into the Capitol. And what Trump's role is, is not that he had the rally in the first place. That's what we do in America. The problem is when he had the opportunity to stop it. You know, you have everybody from Fox News anchors to friends to family begging him to say something to get them to stop, including his vice president. And he was silent.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So –
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
And he didn't say anything. So, it was like, "Why did you allow it to happen," because when a leader sees something that goes wrong, you use the power of your voice to make it right. That's what’s the question is: Where was he? Why didn't he do it? Those are the questions he's going to have to answer.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, Ambassador, just going back to my question, yes or no, is he practically and morally responsible, as Mitch McConnell says –
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
We're going to find out.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But do you think he is? What do you think? You're running for president--
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I think he should have said something earlier. I think he should have stopped it when it started.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is that a yes –
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
It's, it’s what I'm saying. I am telling you having the rally was not a crime. To turn around and not stop people from breaking the law when he had the opportunity to do that is questionable. And that's what I think the courts are going to have to play with and figure out how they're going to do it. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not going to try and play in that. I told you what I think in terms of the fact that anytime there is lawlessness, and you condone lawlessness, and you don't do anything to stop lawlessness, he's going to have to answer for that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you think Donald Trump would follow the Constitution if he were elected to a second term?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I don't know. I don't, I don’t know. I mean, you always want to think someone will. But I don't know. You know, when you, when you go in and you talk about revenge, when you go and you talk about, you know, vindication, when you go and you talk about, what does that mean? Like, I don't know what that means. And only he can answer for that. What I can answer for is I don't think there should ever be a president that's above the law. I don't think that there should ever be a president that has total immunity to do whatever they want to do. I think that we need to have someone that our kids can look up to, that they can be proud of. And I think we need to have a country of law and order, a country of freedom, and a country that goes back to respecting the value of a taxpayer dollar. And we don't have any of that right now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What does it say about the state of the Republican Party that you're saying that you don't know if the GOP front-runner will follow the Constitution?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Because I'm saying that's not the Republican Party. That is Donald Trump. If that is in question, that is for the voters to decide. What I am saying is: I think we deserve better. Americans deserve better. We can't say that our only options are Joe Biden and Donald Trump. We can't. Two guys in their 80s. Two guys that continue to put this division between America. Two guys who haven't talked about a vision for the future. All they do is talk about each other and the past. That's the problem.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You've seen the turnout, the results in these early voting states. The majority of voters are voting for Donald Trump. Do you still feel at home in the Republican Party, given what you're saying?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I am a Republican, and I know that there are thousands of people showing up at our events that are Republicans that do believe, unlike Donald Trump, in fiscal responsibility; that do believe in limit government, unlike Donald Trump; that do believe that we should stand with our allies in peace through strength; and that do believe that you can't go and call names, and say things, and blast against the bureaucracy, and do all these things to cause this anger and think that there's a better way forward. And I think that's what I'm trying to issue.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, more of my conversation with Nikki Haley and whether she believes there should be federal protections for IVF.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. This week, a single Republican lawmaker blocked legislation that would have created federal protections for IVF access nationwide. Mississippi Senator Cindy Hyde-Smith, who blocked the bill, said it was, quote, "vast overreach." I asked Ambassador Nikki Haley whether she supports federal protections for IVF.
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
What I support is that we make sure that every parent has the right to have those fertility processes. I had my two children through fertility. I want every parent who wants that blessing to be able to have that. And government shouldn't do anything to stop it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, should there be federal protections for people for IVF?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I think there should be protections for the embryos, so that parents feel like they're protected and respected. But I think the conversation of what happens with those embryos has to be between the parents and the physician, period. We don't need to go and create a bunch of laws for something when we don't have a problem. There is not a problem, in terms of what is happening, so we shouldn't have government create one. This is – this is not a hard thing. When parents decide they want to have a baby and they can't, the blessing that Michael and I had, to be able to go through the fertility processes to have our babies was a personal one that we wanted to have just with our doctor. We don't want to have that conversation with government.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You're saying that the decision should be between parents and the physician, no one else. Why doesn't that same standard apply to an abortion, for example?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Well, what I have said is: This should be in the hands of the people for the people to decide. They should decide whether their states are going to be pro-life or pro-choice. They should decide whether their states are going to be IVF or not IVF. I personally think we want as many fertility options for people as they can. That's my opinion.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It –
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
But other states may decide something different. Alabama was going in one direction. I don't think that's a direction you want to go, the same way I don't think that the conversations that people have been having on abortion are good conversations. They divide people, instead of bringing people together. And I think these need to be handled with respect and humanizing these situations, instead of demonizing them.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You have said embryos are babies. It sounds like you don't want the government involved when it comes to IVF, but you do when it comes to abortion.
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
My personal opinions is that embryos are babies. Somebody else's may be different. I treated – the way Michael and I looked at it was we always looked at it that way. But everybody looks at this differently, and you are looking at a situation where, one, you're not talking about masses of embryos, but, two, you've got to talk with your doctor about what's viable and what's not. It's a very technical process that you can't just blanket a law around.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and that’s why – I just want to get the bottom line here, because, as you rightfully say, IVF is a process in which embryos are sometimes destroyed or donated. Do you support IVF as it is practiced in the United States?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Yes, of course.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And should there be federal protections for that?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Yes, to make sure that IVF is there, to make sure that parents have it, all of that. But keep in mind, too, even when you're talking about the issue of abortion – and I don't think the fellows have talked about it well at all – we have to go back to, "What is it that we want?" We all want to say, "How do we save as many babies as possible and support as many moms as possible?" That's why I've said, with a federal law, rather than going and demonizing this issue, let's find consensus and say, "Why can't we come together on banning late-term abortions? Why can't we come together on encouraging adoptions? Why can't we come together on saying doctors and nurses who don't believe in abortion shouldn't have to perform them? Why can't we come together and say contraception should be accessible? And why can't we come together and say no state can tell a woman who's had an abortion she's going to jail or getting the death penalty?" Why don't we just start there?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is consensus realistic, though? This is an issue that's been debated for over 50 years. Is that realistic, consensus?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Consensus is available when you tell the American people the truth. The American people have been told to have options that aren't realistic. You can't get consensus unless you have a majority of the House, 60 Senate votes, and a signature of a president. That's not going to happen without consensus.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Let me turn to foreign policy quickly. Senator Lindsey Graham has taken up Donald Trump's position that he wants to support more aid to Ukraine only if it's in the form of a loan. Is that something you would support?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I think we need to give them the equipment and ammunition they need to win.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is a loan appropriate?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I mean, you can do a loan if you want. But – if – that's like taking away the situation. What you should be looking at is: Putin has been very clear. Once he takes Ukraine, he's not going to stop. Poland and the Baltics are next. Look at what's happening with Moldova now. Those are NATO countries – not Moldova, but the others. Those are NATO countries. That puts America at war. This is about preventing war. If we don't work with our allies to give them the equipment and ammunition to win, if Ukraine falls, Russia will go further. And that puts America at war. So, this isn't about a loan. Give them the equipment and ammunition they need to win, and let's put this to bed. Biden was too slow in the process. And now, Republicans are trying to play footsie with it. This is not something to play footsie with. This is about protecting Americans.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Finally, you have knocked down the prospects of running as a third-party candidate. Can you just definitively say here and now, are you ruling out running as a third-party candidate?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Absolutely. I've said that over and over again. I've ruled out everything anybody could possibly say. I'm doing this because I think we have a country to save. I'm doing this for my kids, and I'm doing this for your kids and everybody else's, because they deserve to know what the American dream feels like, what hope feels like. If you look at the fact they went through COVID, and they've gone through all this division, and they don't think they're going to be able to afford a home or be able to make ends meet, we have to show them that there is a path. And right now, they don't feel that. And we owe that to them.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Ambassador Nikki Haley, thank you so much for being here today. Thanks for answering all my questions.
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Thanks so much.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Really appreciate it.
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Of course.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, Michigan voters upset with President Biden's Israel policy sent a message this week. Will it cost him the state in a close general election? Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell of Michigan joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The U.S. made its first air drops of humanitarian aid into Gaza on Saturday, 38,000 ready-to-eat meals in a joint operation with the Jordanian air force. It comes after scores of Palestinians were killed while trying to get aid from a food convoy on Thursday. Palestinian witnesses in Gaza say Israeli troops opened fire on civilians gathering to receive aid. But the Israeli military says many were trampled in a stampede, and others were shot when they threatened Israeli soldiers. President Biden weighed in on Friday.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
People are so desperate that innocent people got caught in a terrible war, unable to feed their families. And we saw the response when they tried to get aid in. And we need to do more. And the United States will do more.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
On Tuesday more than 100,00 Democratic primary voters in Michigan, 13% of the electorate, voted uncommitted, a protest vote over President Biden's handling of the Israel-Gaza war. Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell of Michigan joins me now. Congresswoman Dingell, welcome back to Meet The Press. Thank you for being here.
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL:
It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it's wonderful to have you in person. Let's dive in and talk about what happened in Michigan this week. The uncommitted vote as I just said got about 13%. Two delegates are going to the convention this summer. How big of a warning sign do you see this as for President Biden?
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL:
So I'm going to answer this very differently which is Michigan is a purple state. And I've been saying that for a long time. We are a state that frequently votes uncommitted. President Obama got a highly – got a significant uncommitted vote in 2012. But it is one issue that needs to be paid attention to. I got a lot of people that are hurting in my district and in the district that I used to represent. The name of their campaign, the one that I believe was effective, was called "Listen to Michigan." They didn't think anybody was hearing the hurt that their families were facing. I have families that have lost 40 members of one family. They are – the case work I'm doing for people that are starving, have no food, they want everybody to hear them. They're going to be an important group in November. But there's a lot of other groups that we have to make sure turn out. It's going to be a turn-out election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And there's no doubt about that. But this issue Congresswoman, as you know, has really gained traction. In fact 11 other states that are poised to vote have similar protest votes that are being mobilized. What is your message to those voters? And is the president doing enough to reach out to them?
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL:
I have had very different conversations with the president. And I believe those conversations are private. But I think you've seen a change that the White House has been reaching out more to the Arab-American Muslims community, hearing their hurt. I am told that they are doing many things very directly. I pray that we're going to get a temporary cease-fire any minute. I know that they've been hard for that. And that it leads to a permanent cease fire. We need a cease fire. We've lost 12,000-14,000 children. And what Hamas did was a terrorist act. And we want the hostages to come home. I think most Americans are – are – are horrified by what Hamas did. But social media is letting a lot of people see the horrific circumstances in Gaza.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and as you know several weeks ago, there were protesters at several of President Biden's events. The first lady had protesters just yesterday when she was talking. And we have reporting that the president's aides are actually trying to tailor some of his public events so that he interfaces less with these protesters, smaller events, no college campuses. Is that the right strategy, congresswoman?
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL:
So I'm just going to say, I meet with everybody and was protested almost every day last week. I've called for a cease-fire. And there are a lot of very strong feelings. I know that the president will meet with this community. I think they're very raw right now. And I think let's get some pieces in place. But you know, I want to tell you something else. I don't hear Donald Trump talk about this at all. And I – I'm not exactly sure how he would be handling it. I have some pretty strong feelings about what would be happening there. Joe Biden is talking about it. Joe Biden is working hard to get that cease-fire.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about one of the recent actions by the Biden administration, those air drops that we just talked about. One former U.S. official called them "inefficient" and said it makes American look weak because the U.S. is an ally to Israel. Is that a sign that the U.S. pressure on Israel for more humanitarian aid, for fewer civilian deaths, is just not working?
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL:
I don't know. I – I think the president is pushing very hard. We have to get humanitarian aid in there. 85% of the people have no home. What people don’t – like the – the population of Gaza is 2.2. 1.5 million of them have gone to Rafah. And they have nothing. There's no toilets. There's no showers. There's no food. And that horrific picture we all saw on Thursday was desperation. It was total desperation. And when – when you shoot into crowds that are desperate and they're hungry, and there's a famine, that's what happens. We need to get aid. The president's trying to get it there every means possible. We all need to do it. And quite frankly humanitarian aid needs to be part of any package we do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
This is all going on against the backdrop of new polling numbers that we are getting out for President Biden. And it shows, in addition to Donald Trump leading by five points, a real enthusiasm gap, less than one in four Democratic primary voters said they were enthusiastic about President Biden. Do you think the White House, is the president paying close enough attention to these numbers? Is there enough urgency?
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL:
So first of all I'm always the wrong person to talk to about polling. Because I told the world, and many of my Republican friends didn't believe me either, that Donald Trump was going to win Michigan and thus won the election in 2016. If you look at the polling now that we're even looking at, there have been three national polls that have shown Biden up – President Biden up or tied with Donald Trump. The numbers in all these different polls in the last – he's done well. I think – I do believe that President Biden is getting this sense of urgency. I traveled with him two weeks ago. I spent eight hours with him. They're starting to put the resources we need to see into Michigan. I think we are seeing a campaign that post Super Tuesday is going to go all in the ground and knows what we've got to do to get the job done.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me talk to you about another major issue, the border. President Biden reportedly planning to – thinking about taking an executive action that would restrict migrants from seeking asylum during surges. He's obviously gotten some backlash from some advocates. Do you think that that is the right move? Would you support that type of an executive action?
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL:
You know what I want to see? I want to see the bipartisan bill that the Senate worked on for several months actually come forward. And I think when you've got a former president who's a candidate for president tell people not to support something because it would give a win to a Democrat, the American people need a win.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Understood, Congress did not move on that issue.
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL:
But – and we –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But should the president? Should the president–
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL:
The president needs to –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– take that executive action?
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL:
– needs to be looking at executive orders. But he needs more money. It needs to go into custom and border patrols. The Republicans have cut that. We need to appropriate more money for judges, for law enforcement officials, for technology that's going to detect fentanyl. And the Republicans won't give it. So do I think he should look at every possible executive action? Yes. But do I think Congress, yes, Democrats and Republicans, Republicans and Democrats need to put resources in it and give the American people a win now, not wait till another election. This is a hard issue. We're elected to do tough jobs. It's been decades. Nobody's gotten it done. It's time to get the job done together in the Congress.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. We will leave it on that very powerful message. Congresswoman Debbie Dingell, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it. When we come back, the issue of IVF has been a complicated conversation for politicians for decades. Our Meet The Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. An Alabama Supreme Court ruling defining embryos as children has thrust the issue of IVF back into the spotlight, sparking a nationwide backlash from Democrats and even Republicans. But it's a conversation the country has been having for decades. Democratic Congresswoman Geraldine Ferraro, the first woman to be a major party vice presidential nominee, joined this broadcast in 1984. Take a listen to how she balanced her position on choice with her Catholic faith.
[START TAPE]
GERALDINE FERRARO:
Can I prove that a – that an unfertilized egg is a human being? No, I can't; neither can anybody else, scientifically. But because we can't, my church teaches that there is a presumption of life. I will accept the teachings of my church, and I will go by the rules of my church for my own life. I have a lot of friends who do not accept that premise.
RODGER MUDD:
But you accept it?
GERALDINE FERRARO:
I accept it. It’s my – And so for me, I would never an abortion. Again, let me just be very, very honest. I – I would never have one. But if I were ever to become pregnant as a result of a rape, I don't know what I'd do. I – I really don't know what I'd do. But that decision I would want to leave to me.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, will Donald Trump's delay tactics keep his January 6th case from going to trial before Election Day? The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here: NBC News Capitol Hill Correspondent Ali Vitali; Geoff Bennett, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour; Maria Teresa Kumar, president of Voto Latino; and Marc Short, former chief of staff to Vice President Mike Pence. Thanks so much to all of you for being here. Ali, I have to start with you. You have been on the trail non-stop with Nikki Haley. She was defiant. She's staying in this race, but didn't really give a clear path of what happens after Super Tuesday. Do you think she sees this as her last stand?
ALI VITALI:
It was such a good interview, Kristen. And I think –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you.
ALI VITALI:
– the struggle for people is that she is not willing to say that it's over. She has said, "If you're running for president, you're not looking for the exit route." Fine, I take that point. But I think that her campaign, even behind closed doors with donors, is not pitching a path to victory. They're just pitching, "Let's stay in this as strong as we possibly can. Give us the money. Give us the support for that." I will say, when she says that they’re getting a substantial percentage of voters – be it 20%, 30%, closer to 40% in New Hampshire – I meet those voters who want the alternative. They're not just your run-of-the-mill voters either. Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska called me last night to talk about her endorsement of Haley, and she said she's not going to vote for Trump in the 2024 election. Not surprising, but new. She's also not going to vote for Biden, and she's not willing to wave the white flag yet. I meet voters like that all the time.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That's significant. It speaks to a potential vulnerability for Trump in the general election. And, Geoff, the big question hovering over all of this: If Nikki Haley drops out of the race, will she endorse Trump? I sure tried to get an answer.
GEOFF BENNETT:
Yeah, you did.
KRISTEN WELKER:
She did back away from that RNC pledge though.
GEOFF BENNETT:
Yeah, and the pledge was a requirement to get on the debate stage. The debates are over. The leadership of the RNC is changing, with Donald Trump set to install loyalists atop that organization once Ronna McDaniel steps down next week. But to the bigger picture about an endorsement, it would really only make sense if she were running to be Donald Trump's vice president. She says she's not. She says that's off the table. And so I think the end game for Nikki Haley is really that she's really kind of playing the long game with an eye towards 2028. Her campaign is investing a lot of time and money in building out a national infrastructure, raising her profile, raising her brand. She's only 52, which is young by modern political standards –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes, it is.
GEOFF BENNETT:
– especially these days. And so the question about an endorsement will be: Where does she see the party going, and does that make sense for her politically? Best case scenario for Nikki Haley, I think, is that Donald Trump loses to Joe Biden in November and all of her warnings about Donald Trump's electability will seem prescient.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, I think that that's a really good point. Marc, turning to you, I thought it was notable when she paused and said, "I don't know," when I asked her if she thought Trump would follow the Constitution. Former Vice President Mike Pence ran his campaign centered around the idea that Trump asked him not to follow the Constitution. What did you make of that moment?
MARC SHORT:
Well, I don't know that it was central to his campaign. I think he wanted to bring our party back to traditional conservativism. But I think if past is prologue, I think the answer to that question is no. I think that around events, around January 6th the president viewed the Constitution as inconvenient to his personal and political desires. But at the same time, I think that the vast majority of voters when he's leading these polls, it's because they're concerned about Bidenomics. They're concerned about inflation. They're concerned about the crisis at the border. That's not the number one issue that's driving them. And, thankfully, our founders created a system that has a lot of checks and balances. We had a vice president who maintained his oath to the Constitution. We had Congress that came back and reconvened and certified the election. And we had courts that weighed in.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Maria Teresa, what do you make of that? And, of course, one of the big questions looming over this is: How might Trump's legal battles impact a general election? Because, boy, in the primary they have only emboldened him. Do things look a little bit different in a general election?
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
I do, because every time he goes into court he is able to raise money and rally his base. He is right now in the primary for his MAGA underpinnings, right? For the MAGA – the MAGA crowd. But once you get into a general election, if you see what happened during the midterm elections, where everybody said there was going to be a massive red wave, there was not a red wave because independent and moderate Republicans said, "This is not my guy." Why? Because they had been reminded all summer of what had happened during the January 6th hearings. They were actually able to disclose all these shenanigans that he did to try to undermine 80 million voters. The largest possible insurrection actually was going to suppress the maximum amount of voters. That's what the end game was. And so I think going into September, he's really gambling with the American people being reminded of his trying to undermine our democracy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Marc, what do you make of that? And this delay tactic that we've seen from the Trump legal team has worked. The Supreme Court is taking up the immunity case. Of course, there's this whole case in Georgia. We don't know when the documents case is going to trial.
MARC SHORT:
I agree with Maria's commentary, that I think this will have fewer benefits when you get to the general than it has in the primary. But it's remarkable, the amount of support he's gotten because of these cases. A lot of Americans feel that they are politicized. But I think that he – it's been effective to delay. For sure, that benefits him. I think it's appropriate the Supreme Court weigh in on something this monumental. But I think the biggest irony here, Kristen, which less people are talking about, is the president taking this position of absolute immunity — for president, there's nothing you can come after – yet at the same time he campaigns and says, "I'm going to prosecute Joe Biden on day one." And that's obviously totally inconsistent.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That's a great point and something I'm going to lock away for next time I have to ask a question about that. That's a great point. Let's look forward a little bit. We have Super Tuesday. We have the State of the Union address, Ali. And of course this week the big news on your other beat was the fact that Leader McConnell announced he's stepping back from his leadership position. He said it's time for a new generation of leaders. Here is Joe Biden, poised to deliver the State of the Union address. People will be listening to, yes, his policy but his performance amid questions about whether he can serve another four years.
ALI VITALI:
And, look, the timing is super important, too, because it comes after Super Tuesday, when Trump is likely to lock up the nomination in more fulsome fashion than we've already seen him be able to do it. We've probably heard this speech from Biden before. We were talking about this earlier. I think this Congress has been so unruly. House Republicans are showing that they are not only willing to impeach Joe Biden over a case that is increasingly falling apart, but they're also willing to eat their own as they go about governing. And then on the Senate side, with McConnell stepping down, I think the most fascinating thing is that we anticipated someone like Senator John Thune or even Senator John Barrasso to be the likely heir apparent. Now, you're seeing that water get even muddier. And I'm someone who doesn't think Trump has a lot of power in terms of swaying votes on Capitol Hill, but the way that he could reshape the Republican Party from a leadership perspective with someone like Steve Daines or even with Barrasso utterly pushing Thune out of the way, I think would be really stark in terms of the difference that we see in this Republican conference.
GEOFF BENNETT:
I was talking with a top Democrat who said that he thought he'd never be in a position to be sad to see Mitch McConnell go, start eyeing the exits and not run for leadership. But he is given the potential alternatives, to the point that you make, Ali.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Marc, what happens if the Senate is reshaped in a MAGA fold?
MARC SHORT:
Well, I think first we don't appreciate enough the legacy of Mitch McConnell. I think the way he reshaped our courts is a tremendous legacy that we're not appreciating as much in this moment of all other news. But to Ali's point, when Paul Ryan stepped aside, he left a lot of time that I don't think was helpful in some ways in retrospect to Kevin McCarthy because people could pick apart Kevin or try to make deals. I think you have the same dynamic here in the Senate. There's so much time between now and the next Senate leadership elections that there will be a lot of transactions and a lot of negotiating here that may not be beneficial to those who are throwing their hat in the ring so early.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Maria Teresa, weigh in on this idea that he reshaped the courts. Because if you're Merrick Garland watching this, of course he blocked Merrick Garland from getting a vote for the Supreme Court. How do Democrats see this, and what do Democrats want to see on Thursday night from the State of the Union?
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
I think what the Democrats are going to remind the American people is: What happens when you no longer have someone leading the Republican Party who believes in our institutions? What happens when they all of a sudden become a truly MAGA party of the most extreme? So that actually, as we're going into the elections, that actually gives the Democrats an opportunity to remind the American people that the ballot is not just about, yes, who's going to be leading the Senate – but more importantly the state of the country. And that takes me now into the State of Union. We heard Congresswoman Dingell talk about the importance of having the President speak very clearly to the American public, not just on immigration, but the totality of it. I've been traveling the country, and I can tell you whether we're talking to grassroots activists or volunteers or even donors – they want to hear from the president: "What are you going to do for us tomorrow?" It's not enough to be against Trump, but, "What is our future?" And I know that folks are saying that he's going to talk about the border, and I would encourage him not only to talk about the border through the lens of the immediate international issue, but also to talk about the undocumented individuals that have been here for so many years. Because they live amongst close to 16 million Americans, who are waiting for the president to say, "I see you, and we're going to solve our immigration issue for those individuals."
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. High stakes on Tuesday and Thursday night. Awesome conversation. Thank you all. Before we go, do not miss our special Super Tuesday coverage beginning at 5:00 p.m. Eastern on NBC News Now and 10:00 p.m. on the network. And tune in on Thursday night for coverage of President Biden's third State of the Union address. That is all for today. Thank you so much for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
