RYAN NOBLES:
This Sunday, holding power. With just over four months until the midterms, President Trump is putting his own party to the test. Pressuring Republicans, and derailing a bipartisan housing bill to press for a proof of citizenship voting bill.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We’re very proud of the party. We like our leader. We like everybody really in the room. I don’t like a few people, but that’s okay.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
He really doesn’t care about American families and doesn’t care about the fact that prices are up.
SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE MIKE JOHNSON:
The president will sign it, but he wanted to make a point today.
RYAN NOBLES:
I’ll talk to Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut and Republican Senator Roger Marshall of Kansas. Plus, regime change. A new look inside President Trump’s second term. How he’s redefining the limits of the presidency. I’ll talk to New York Times reporters Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan about their new book “Regime Change.” And, left lane.
MAYOR ZOHRAN MAMDANI:
Congresswomen, Claire Valdez!
RYAN NOBLES:
Democratic socialists backed by New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani score key primary wins. What does it mean for the future of the Democratic Party? Joining me for insight and analysis are, Leigh Ann Caldwell, chief Washington correspondent for Puck. Marc Short, former director of legislative affairs for President Trump. And Ashley Etienne, former communications director to Vice President Harris. Welcome to Sunday, It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press, with Kristen Welker.
RYAN NOBLES:
Good Sunday morning. I’m Ryan Nobles, in for Kristen Welker as she continues to recover from a medical procedure. She is doing well and will be back with you soon. Tensions are rising again in the Middle East, after the war with Iran escalated overnight, with new U.S. strikes following an attack on a commercial ship in the Strait of Hormuz. Back home in Washington this week, President Trump abruptly canceled the signing ceremony for a bipartisan housing bill, saying he wouldn’t sign the bill unless Congress passes the “SAVE” Act, legislation that would require voter ID, documentary proof of citizenship to vote in federal elections, and would limit mail in voting.
REPORTER:
Would you be open to a compromise measure that had provisions of the SAVE Act into a reconciliation package?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Not really, no. The SAVE Act should — there’s no compromise. It’s voter ID, it’s proof of citizenship, and it’s also the mail-in ballots. I said I’m not signing the housing bill. I want to see what happens with SAVE -- look, the housing bill is -- housing. I made billions of dollars with housing. I know housing better than anybody, maybe anywhere.
RYAN NOBLES:
The president attending lunch on Capitol Hill that same day with Senate Republicans, reportedly getting into a shouting match with Senator Bill Cassidy over support for the war in Iran.
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
I’m not going to be bullied when I’m trying to get answers for the American people, and so, so it escalated from there. At some point it de-escalated.
REPORTER:
We’re told the president called you a lunatic?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Can I imagine that the president called me things that would be said on the school playground? Yeah, I can imagine that.
RYAN NOBLES:
Meanwhile in New York this week, a slate of progressive candidates, all backed by Mayor Zohran Mamdani, prevailed in three Democratic House primaries, two of those, defeating incumbents.
MAYOR ZOHRAN MAMDANI:
We are showing there is a new path for politics in our city and in our country. We are showing that last June, a year ago tomorrow, was not an anomaly.
RYAN NOBLES:
At the same time, President Trump trying to cast those primaries in his own terms.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Well, they’re going radical left. They’re going, and really you talk about the Democrat socialist, you talk, really, it’s really communist, that’s these people.
RYAN NOBLES:
And joining me now is Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. He’s the author of the new book, “Crisis of the Common Good.” Senator Murphy, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Yeah, thanks for having me.
RYAN NOBLES:
Let’s, first off, start with your reaction to the latest primary results out of New York. You’ve heard President Trump say that these candidates aren’t socialists. He’s gone as far as to call them communists. As someone who identifies as a progressive, is this a moment of reckoning for establishment Democrats?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, I think you’re going to have different candidates being nominated in New York City and suburban Connecticut. This is a party that has also nominated and won with candidates like Abigail Spanberger and Mikie Sherrill. I — I want us to be a big tent party. I mean, I’ve been saying this for years. I think that it’s actually a sign of a party that is alive and growing when there’s a contest of ideas inside the party. So I’m not a democratic socialist, but I do believe that the Democratic Party has been historically way too timid in taking on corporate power. I think our party should have bigger ideas. I put one on the table last week, a $25 minimum wage. And I think we do have to have answers for the way in which corporations and billionaires are taking over and corrupting our politics. So, I do think that there is somewhat of a trend that candidates who are confronting concentrated corporate power in a meaningful way are winning. And I think that that is something that the Democratic Party should pay attention to.
RYAN NOBLES:
There’s a lot of polling that shows that the rise of socialism is becoming a big part of the Democratic base. In fact, over two-thirds of Democrats view socialism more positively than capitalism. Does the Democratic Party actually need to embrace the moniker of socialism, lean into it?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
No. But I — I think we have to understand that people do not believe that this version of capitalism has worked. And frankly, it hasn’t worked. I mean, you have 40% of Americans today that are working full time and don’t have enough money saved up in the bank for an emergency car repair. Meanwhile, we just saw the first trillionaire made in this economy. This version of capitalism isn’t working. Now, I make the argument in the book that we should embrace, you know, what I call a common good capitalism. A capitalism where we have more shared prosperity, where we want more millionaires and less trillionaires. Where we have a higher minimum wage, where unions are more powerful. Democrats are not going to win by defending this version of capitalism. But I think we’ll be able to offer ideas on how to dramatically reform it rather than throwing out the entire system.
RYAN NOBLES:
Well, let’s talk about one of those candidates who won on Tuesday, who describes herself as a socialist, and that’s Darializa Avila Chevalier. She’s faced criticism now over deleted social media posts. I want to take — I want you to take a listen to this attack ad from her former opponent.
[BEGIN TAPE]
VOICEOVER:
Let’s meet Darializa in her own words. She won’t stand by Kamala Harris. She won’t stand by Joe Biden. She even called him a rapist. She won’t stand by veterans or the American flag. She stands with dividing us by race. Meet the real Darializa, the one she tried to delete.
[END TAPE]
RYAN NOBLES:
So to be clear, Senator, that was an attack ad from a fellow Democrat. You’ve talked about this bigger tent. If you’re saying the Democratic Party needs a bigger tent, does that include someone who called a former Democratic president of the United States a rapist?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Yeah, well, I mean, I’m not super familiar with that race. All I’m saying is that this party has to have a real contest of ideas. And I just don’t think that our defense of incrementalism has worked. So I don’t mind a contest of ideas, and I just don’t know that we have had it to the extent that voters have been satisfied. Listen, it’s no secret, voters aren’t super happy with establishment Democrats or establishment Republicans these days. I will say, though, what binds together I think every Democratic candidate that is running, including the ones in New York, is that they are standing up to protect American democracy. And right now the biggest threat to this country is — are not a handful of House candidates in New York. It is the president of the United States that is trying to destroy American democracy, and the Democratic Party, left, right, and center, is united around the fact that we need to protect this nation from Donald Trump’s attacks on the rule of law.
RYAN NOBLES:
Okay, to that end I do want to read to you part — from your latest book, “Crisis of the Common Good.” You say that, “Many leading Democrats, and even more in the pundit class, treat populist leaders like Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Zohran Mamdani as fringe threats to the party’s electoral success. Voters chose Trump because they wanted a revolution. But my party doesn’t yet seem completely ready to seize this moment.” How do you seize the energy of the left wing of the party without alienating mainstream voters, and maybe even some Trump voters that might be willing to cross over and vote for Democrats?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Yeah, the argument that I make is that there are a lot of Trump voters who believe that the economy is rigged, and they mistakenly thought that Donald Trump was going to unrig it. They now see him as a fake populist. And so they are open for — to listen to a Democratic Party that is for increasing the minimum wage, breaking up concentrated corporate power, bringing back the strength of labor unions. Now, I think we have been probably far too judgmental of some of these voters on the right because they don’t share all of our cultural and social views. I don’t argue that the Democratic Party should change our views when it comes to issues like guns, or climate, or abortion. I just think that we have to accept into the coalition people that may have voted for Donald Trump and wants a party that is going to unrig the democracy, but may not be ready to join us on all of our social and cultural views. We should give them a place in our party. And I think the only way that we give them that place is by being stronger in the way that we confront the consolidation of corporate power in this country.
RYAN NOBLES:
Okay, let’s zero in on that topic that you raised earlier. And that is your new bill to raise the minimum wage. You are calling for a minimum wage of $25 an hour. It has not been raised nationally since above $7.25 an hour since 2009. The most recent analysis from the Congressional Budget Office said that even a $17 per hour raise would result in massive job cuts. Would your bill actually do more harm than good?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
No, it wouldn’t. And there’s plenty of economic analysis to show that if you gradually raise the minimum wage to $25 an hour you’re going to create more jobs than you’re going to lose. And my bill doesn’t do it automatically. But this is actually a unifying issue. And so when I talk about how you bring Republicans who voted for Trump over to the Democratic side, an aggressive increase in the minimum wage is part of the answer. If you ask Democrats in an open survey what they think the minimum wage should be, they say $27. If you ask Republicans, Independents, they say $26. You know why? $25 is just the minimum wage you need to pay your bills in this country. And in the most affluent, most powerful country in the world, if you work full time you should be able to pay your bills. And by the way, we can afford it. It’s not like we can’t pay a $25 minimum wage, we just choose not to because we’ve become okay with dozens and dozens of people in this country making hundreds of billions of dollars. So, this is the kind of idea that shows that the Democratic Party is ready to fundamentally change this economy. And I think this is the kind of idea that brings Trump voters over. Remember, there was a meme online about a year ago in which folks were claiming to the right that Donald Trump had already implemented a $25 minimum wage. And people in his coalition were super pumped about that. We can’t let Donald Trump pretend that he’s actually going to raise wages. But we have to show that the Democratic Party, if we get power, is really willing to do it.
RYAN NOBLES:
Yeah. So on the issue of affordability, there was a bipartisan housing bill that passed both chambers of Congress, but it’s currently stalled after President Trump said that he won’t sign the bill until the SAVE Act is passed. One of the elements of the SAVE Act requires voters to show ID. If there was a vote that came to the floor that just required voters to show photo ID, would you support it?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, I mean, it depends on what it looks like in Connecticut. You know, we have safe and secure elections. This whole idea behind the SAVE Act is trying to push a mythology that our elections aren’t secure, are rigged. That’s not true. The problem with the SAVE Act is that they don’t really care about the voter ID provision. That’s not why they’re pushing the SAVE Act. They care about a provision that would create a national voter list that would allow Trump to go in and take people out of it, so he could claim that the wrong people voted in state elections. It’s actually why a lot of Republicans in the Senate don’t support the SAVE Act. Donald Trump is the most unpopular president in the recent history of this country, and so he is trying to rig the election in part by creating this national vote –
RYAN NOBLES:
But Senator, if I could pin you down on that, though, do you think establishing a standard by which a photo ID is necessary to vote in elections is something that should exist in the United States? Just that simple premise.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Yeah, I think there are a lot of people in my state that don’t have that ID. And there’s no evidence, no evidence, zero evidence in this country, that there is a problem at scale with people faking their identification in elections. And again, let’s just — let’s just dispense with the idea that that’s what this bill is about. That’s not what this bill is about. This bill is about trying to create a national voter list that creates the pretext for Donald Trump to try to say that state elections have been rigged or manipulated.
RYAN NOBLES:
Okay, Senator Murphy, we’re going to leave it there. Thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate it.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Thank you.
RYAN NOBLES:
And when we come back, Republican Senator Roger Marshall of Kansas joins me next.
RYAN NOBLES:
Welcome back. And joining me now is Republican Senator Roger Marshall of Kansas. Senator Marshall, welcome back to Meet The Press.
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
It’s great to be with you.
RYAN NOBLES:
All right. Let’s start with the war in Iran. The war now there has passed 120 days. Secretary Rubio testified that the war is over. Yet overnight, the U.S. launched new strikes inside Iran. If the U.S. is still bombing Iran 120 days into this conflict, how can the Trump administration credibly say the war is over?
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
Well, Ryan, look, I’m just going to stay focused on my goals have been all along, no nukes for Iran, no forever wars, bringing the cost of gas and grocery down. The major war is over. And think of this as almost just a mop-up operation. We have to press them. If they strike us, we have to strike them back by ten. We’re making great progress. To your point, about Secretary Rubio. He just made a great, landmark case over in Lebanon and Israel getting those folks together. Look, let’s not — let’s root for the Trump team for once rather than try to tear them down. So I think we’re doing what we need to do, making great progress here, and again, working toward those goals, no nukes for Iran, no forever wars. And let’s keep bringing that cost of gas and groceries down back home.
RYAN NOBLES:
But more to the principal question here, Senator, is the war still going on? Can we credibly say that the war is over at this point?
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
Well, I don’t think the war is over. I think there’s a détente going on right now that President Trump for the first time ever got Iran to sign a document that they will not develop any nuclear weapons in the future. That’s — that’s great. And then he followed that up with they’re going to sign a U.N. res — security resolution as well. We’re making great progress. So Amer — I’m asking America to hang in there. This is a — this is a détente. This is a ceasefire. And yeah we — they broke the ceasefire. We have to answer that as well. They only understand strength. You know, we destroyed their economy. We destroyed their military. We’re in a good spot right now.
RYAN NOBLES:
All right. Well, you mentioned affordability as a backdrop to the war and the situation there. And this week the housing bill that was passed by a bipartisan measure in both the House and Senate is currently stalled. And that’s because President Trump has refused to sign it. I want to show you what White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt posted about the housing act. She said it was, quote, “one of the most significant pieces of housing affordability legislation in American history.” She added, “promises made, promises kept.” But within hours of that post, President Trump canceled the bill signing, saying that it was just of minor importance. Did President Trump break his promise when it comes to housing and affordability?
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
Look, this is a long book right now. I’m concerned about the cost of living right now. Under Joe Biden, you saw the cost of housing, healthcare, childcare all go up 50%. And we’re still reeling from that. But we’re getting back in the game again. That America is truly back, that real wages are outpacing inflation right now. Housing is part of the puzzle. But this is classic Donald Trump negotiation style. He’s going to grab every leverage point he can, and this is one, to get the bigger priority to cross the finish line. And that’s election integrity.
RYAN NOBLES:
But Senator, we’ll get to the Save Act in a second. First of all we should point out that at this point wages are not outpacing inflation. That’s not correct. But if you insist that the housing crisis is of an imminent crisis and need, why wouldn’t the president just sign this bill and push that along? Why is it necessary to hold that process up?
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
Well, Ryan, again to push back, I think real wages are up since President Trump became president. We do have a little blip going on right now. But as the gasoline prices come down, inflation’s going to come down. And wages will get back up. You can’t look at just one day, one week, one month. You have to look at the bigger deal right now. Look, we can do both. We can have people show voter IDs and pass the housing bill and actually have the president sign the housing bill. We can both. I understand the cost of living is the defining issue right now. But also everyone back home is really concerned about election integrity. We need elections that are trustworthy. And right now, some Americans don’t feel it is trustworthy.
RYAN NOBLES:
Okay, well, let’s talk about that. And let’s talk about the realistic possibility of getting the SAVE America Act passed. Even though President Trump has refused to sign any legislation until it is, the SAVE Act calls for several changes to existing voting requirements. But not only do Republicans not have the votes, but I want to play for you what Senator Thom Tillis raised, his questions about this particular piece of legislation. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. THOM TILLIS:
Does any rational person who’s ever had any experience with implementing election law really think that it’s possible to have all that in place in time for this election and not be disruptive?
[END TAPE]
RYAN NOBLES:
Senator Tillis says there’s not enough time or money to even get this place by November. Is he right?
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
Well, that’s very possible. But we shouldn’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. When are we going to do this? Look, I think that there is a huge concern on the part of Americans right now that our elections are not trustworthy. I don’t think that, that fraud will ever end our democracy. But I’m worried about is those that have this belief, this fear that fraud is indeed possible and that it could go unpunished.
(OVERTALK)
SENATOR ROGER MARSHALL:
So that’s why we need to build an election process with integrity.
RYAN NOBLES:
But let’s talk about the root of that feeling that Americans have, at least a certain sect of Americans, as it relates to the integrity of elections. You’ve said if you could pass one bill the best of your career, it would be the SAVE America Act. Every issue we care about starts with secure elections. Federal law already prohibits non-citizens from voting. There’s no evidence that fraudulent votes have changed any election outcomes. Are you trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist?
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
Look, we make pilots before they start flying a plane. We get a — make them get a license to do that. We don’t wait till they crash a plane until we make them go through a process. The issue right now is — is again is that Americans don’t feel that the elections are trustworthy. No one wants their vote canceled–
RYAN NOBLES:
But sir —
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
– by an illegal alien or by a dead person. And all you have to do is look at the elections, recent elections in Los Angeles–
RYAN NOBLES:
But Senator–
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
– to see the concern there as well.
(OVERTALK)
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
So I think there’s real concerns. And the perception here is reality, Ryan. People want election integrity–
RYAN NOBLES: — That’s not —
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
– 90% of Americans want voter ID. So why not do that–
RYAN NOBLES:
But let’s look at the facts connected to this, senator. Because the perception is actually not the reality particularly when it comes to the claims of election fraud. In fact, it was the conservative Heritage Foundation that did an exhaustive study on this going back all the way to the 1980s and pointed out that there’s only 100 total instances of non-citizens voting. Again and again, part of the problem with election integrity is that President Trump keeps accusing election systems of not being fair and not being secure. But there’s actually no evidence to support that. So don’t you need to bring to the American people a suite of issues, a suite of evidence that demonstrates this need? Just give me one example of where there was some level of fraud that the SAVE America Act would have prevented that would have altered an election.
SENATOR ROGER MARSHALL:
Yeah, Ryan, I guess we just look at this differently. I think again I’m going back to that an election process needs to be trustworthy, that the election process is important to the backbone and the survival of this nation. Everything I’ve done professionally, trust has been so important. As a physician, the trust between the doctor and the patient, a military officer, the trust between those below me and above me in rank, and now as a senator, that there needs to be trust. So what are Democrats running from? Why are they afraid? If you’re — If what you’re saying is true, then why are you worried about this? Why not have voter ID? Why not have some type of proof of citizenship. Again, you — you can’t get on a plane without your own ID. Look, when I go to a plane in Kansas, they know who I am. But they make me show our ID as well. Why? They don’t want to wait for a plane to crash before they start enforcing that particular law. So I think again, this is just part of trustworthiness. And the integrity of our elections is that important to our democracies.
RYAN NOBLES:
Okay, but there is some concern among your fellow Republican senators that President Trump’s heavy focus on this is getting in the way of some of the other business that you would like to accomplish. We already mentioned the housing bill. This led to a shouting match. You were in the room for this on Capitol Hill last week. How did you feel when you left the room? And are you concerned about the relationship between Republican senators and the White House?
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
Yeah, I guess I’m just shocked that there’s a world out there that thinks that grown people can’t have a firm discussion. I’ve been through so many hospital board meetings when doctors yelling at each other over what time surgery should start. And maybe I was part of some of those yelling matches as well. Look, but it worked. At the end of the day, he got a couple people to flip and vote in favor of him to allow him to make better progress. He felt like he’s got his legs cut out from under him, that they were negotiating on aiding on Iran. And then this War Powers Act comes through. And he feels like his own team pulled his legs out from behind him.
RYAN NOBLES: –okay.
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
And again, emphasis here. He thinks that this voting rights issue is the main issue. It’s the big deal, the voting rights bill.
RYAN NOBLES:
Okay, so you are on the ballot this fall. And before I let you go, there are rumors in Kansas that you’re being eyed for a Trump Cabinet post. Are you interested in serving in the Trump administration? And would you say yes to that?
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
Yeah, there’s no truth to that at all. I have no interest in doing that. No one from the Trump administration has approached me over anything like that. I’m right where I need to be. I’m where God has put me, that he’s prepared me for this day. My background as a physician, a fifth generation farm kid, military experience, all those coming to fruition right now. I’m right where I need to be, —
RYAN NOBLES: –okay. Alright.
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
have a great relationship working with Secretary Kennedy and Dr. Oz. I’m right where we need to be right now–
RYAN NOBLES:
Okay, and just before we go though, there’s a new vacancy law in Kansas. If you were to resign before October 2nd, a Republican replacement would be appointed through 2028. That would take the power of picking your replacement out of the hands of voters. Can you tell us today that you’re committed to staying on the ballot through Election Day?
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
I will be on the ballot on Election Day, will be honored to represent the people of Kansas for the next six years going forward. It’s been the honor of my lifetime. Look, America is back. The economy is being fueled back home by energy independence. Our manufacturing is growing. I got work to do on health care, lowering the price of health care through our Price Tags bill. I got so much more work to do as a United States senator, but America is back. And I’m just proud to keep serving in this position.
RYAN NOBLES:
Yeah. So that means you’re ruling out any sort of an appointment in the Trump administration, just to, to button it up.
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
I am ruling out any appointment in the Trump administration at least through, through the next two or two or three years. Who knows what would happen four years from now, okay?
RYAN NOBLES:
All right. You’re going to stay on the ballot. All right, Senator Marshall, I’m glad we cleared that up. Thank you so much for being here. We appreciate it.
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:
Thank you.
RYAN NOBLES:
And when we come back, inside President Trump’s decision to launch the Iran war. I’ll talk to New York Times reporters Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan about their new book, “Regime Change.”
RYAN NOBLES:
Welcome back. And joining me now are New York Times reporters Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan. They are the authors of the new book, “Regime Change: Inside the Imperial Presidency of Donald Trump.” Maggie and Jonathan, thank you for both for being here. Had a little time off this week, dove into this incredible read. It is so good, and I’m so glad that you’re here to talk about it. I want to start with the midterms. It’s interesting, coming off our conversation with Senator Marshall. Your reporting suggests that President Trump may not share the same concerns that Republicans have about maintaining their majorities this fall. You write, quote, “Trump had already climbed his own mountain with his improbable comeback in 2024. If Republicans were wiped out in the 2026 midterm elections, or in 2028, he could simply boast that they couldn’t win without him. Trump could barely be stirred to even think about the midterms.” Jonathan, does President Trump actually care whether or not Republicans win in the fall?
JONATHAN SWAN:
Well, it’s not black and white, and it’s not to say he doesn’t care at all. But what we found in our reporting for the book is that his closest aides, his top aides, wish he cared more. Okay? And there was a very revealing comment that Trump made last year when Republicans did extremely poorly in the off-year elections. He said, “People have been saying they can’t win without Trump on the ballot.” And he said, “That’s a great honor.” Okay? So play that forward a little bit. He obviously doesn’t want to get impeached again. But at the same time, you know, he’s not going to get convicted. There’s no universe in which he gets convicted. The Supreme Court gave him sweeping immunity in 2024. We have reporting in our book that he has told people privately that he’s going to pardon anyone who came within 250 feet of the Oval Office. He uses different distances. Sometimes he says 200 feet, sometimes he says 25 feet. But there’s some radius around the Oval Office which is a pardon zone. So really, what he’s spending his time doing is trying to make his own imprint on Washington, physical and figurative, and on the world.
RYAN NOBLES:
So one of the other striking portraits in your book is of Vice President JD Vance. He appears to be someone, at least on some level, willing to tell President Trump things he doesn’t necessarily want to hear. The best example, of course, being Iran. You write, quote, “Vance believed a regime change war with Iran would be a disaster. In front of his colleagues, Vance had warned Trump that a war with Iran could break apart his political coalition and would be seen as a betrayal by many voters who had bought into his promise of no new wars.” How did Vice President Vance’s willingness to push back ultimately affect his standing with President Trump?
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
So it’s a really interesting dynamic, because he was not the only person who opposed this war in Trump’s world, to be clear. In our reporting, and we write about this in the book, none of Trump’s senior advisors, none of his Cabinet really thought this was a good idea. Although, we should make clear that the people who were let into these discussions were so tiny as a group that it excluded the treasury secretary and the energy secretary, the people who would have to manage the after-effects of an energy fallout from this war, because they were concerned about leaks. But Vance was the only one who really vocally took issue with this with Trump. And it irritated Trump. It cost Vance with Trump. But he was the only person who was really sort of rattling the cages. There were other advisors who did make cases against this. We should note that Dan Caine did lay out the scenarios for what could happen. Munitions depletion, which clearly the U.S. is seeing right now in a real way, despite the fact that the administration keeps insisting otherwise. The fact that Iran could close the Strait of Hormuz. So the president will keep saying he wasn’t warned. He absolutely was warned. But Dan Caine is not Mark Milley of term one. He is not engaging in these angry arguments with Donald Trump. And you do sort of see that play out.
RYAN NOBLES:
But there is an interesting dynamic between the vice president and the secretary of state, Marco Rubio. Many view them as one of his potential successors. In any way, did the Iran debate maybe tilt that competition toward Secretary Rubio?
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
Trump likes to play games with people. That’s not new to anybody. He has been doing this version of poll testing, “Who do you like? Do you like Marco or do you like JD Vance?” In fact, we have this pretty remarkable scene in the book where at a dinner with Rupert Murdoch and a bunch of other people in the Blue Room of the White House last October. Vance is there, Rubio is there, several other people are there, and Trump starts asking Murdoch, you know, “What do you think of Vance?” And Murdoch, who did not want Vance to be the VP, says that Vance — “JD has the potential to be great.” And Trump says, “What about Marco?” And Murdoch just sort of flatly says, “Marco is brilliant.”
RYAN NOBLES:
Wow.
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
So I don’t know that it needed too much tilting. I will say, there is nothing in our reporting that suggests that Rubio is doing the things one would be doing to run. And it is still Vance’s to lose, which also doesn’t necessarily thrill Trump, who doesn’t, as Jonathan said, like the idea of somebody coming next.
RYAN NOBLES:
Yeah. Well, let’s talk about the backdrop of Iran, and that’s President Trump’s relationship with the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. And you describe a very tense phone call between the two leaders when President Trump suspected that Netanyahu was trying to back out of negotiations around the ceasefire in Gaza. I’m sure many people have seen this quote many times. I’m going to read it anyway. “Bellowing, Trump told Netanyahu that he was sick of his antics. I’ve done everything to protect you. You better effing go along with this. It’s been going on for too effing long. Everybody’s sick of you, Bibi, Trump said. All the Jews are sick of you. Even the two Jews on this call are sick of you, Trump added, referring to Kushner and Witkoff.” And Jonathan, you’ve gone on to write that President Trump has used his leverage with Netanyahu in a way that President Biden never could have. Why is that?
JONATHAN SWAN:
In that instance, he did. And what was really notable about that instance was it was the first time that Trump had used his leverage against Bibi. He got him to go along with the hostage deal with Hamas. And they released — it was a genuine accomplishment. They got the final hostages out of Gaza. And we write about how Trump in that moment squeezed him. What’s been notable for the rest of the presidency, until pretty recently, is Trump hasn’t used his leverage with Netanyahu. The first bombing campaign last June, Operation Midnight Hammer, initially Trump was very skeptical about going to war in Iran. And he’d been warned by people like Tucker Carlson and others that this would, you know, ruin his presidency. He wanted to do a deal with Iran. Netanyahu did a months-long charm offensive. He brought him a gold-plated pager, you know, that they used to blow up different Hezbollah operatives and others. And so in the end, Trump decided to go along with it. He didn’t use any of his levers against Netanyahu. So that was a very interesting moment because you can see what he’s capable of. I mean, Israel can’t fight alone. It’s just a fact. And there’s a perception that they can. But when you actually look at the numbers and what they’re using in terms of air defenses, they absolutely cannot fight this war alone. But Trump so far, it’s mostly been rhetorical. He hasn’t really used his full leverage.
RYAN NOBLES:
Yeah. Let’s talk now about the Epstein files. That’s been an issue that has been very difficult for the Trump administration. President Trump’s decision to move on from the Epstein files, that launched a series of top secret meetings in the Situation Room. Maggie, what do those moments reveal about how Trump’s top advisors handled that crisis?
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
So you have to set this picture here, Ryan. This had been something that top officials in the Trump government–JD Vance, Kash Patel, the FBI director, Dan Bongino, the deputy FBI director—had spent years talking about how there was a secret cabal of pedophiles. And once they were in charge, they would open this up and make this visible. Trump, to be fair, had never actually really quite gone that far. He had talked about it more in 2015, but it kind of went away.
RYAN NOBLES:
He certainly didn’t reject it, though.
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
Yeah, I mean, as he often does, he sort of leaves it as an option. And there were a number of senior officials in Trump’s White House who didn’t understand what a driving force this was for the MAGA base, for Trump’s own base. Trump wanted nothing to do with any of this. He didn’t want anything out. He was snapping at people who would talk about it. And then he started attacking his own supporters and saying, “This is a hoax.” So we write about a series of meetings in the White House Situation Room, which is intended to deal with national security crises, with foreign wars, you know, with sensitive matters, but not usually matters about, you know, Epstein PR crisis comms. And there were several of these, but we zeroed in on a few. These start, the ones we write about, right after the White House has used all of its political capital on the One Big Beautiful Bill, which you know, was what they would’ve rather been talking about. Instead they find themselves–and it’s the top levels of government. JD Vance, White House chief of staff, attorney general, deputy attorney general, Kash Patel, you know, several lawyers. And that’s, like, half the crew who were in some of these, talking about how to get themselves out of this. And this goes on, and on, and on. And all it does is allow a greater clamor among Trump’s supporters, including this surreal meeting that we end up writing about, where they were planning on putting out some public-facing website with things old and new, and you know, they were discussing what universe it would be. And then somebody had looked up in that mock website they were setting up, Trump’s name. And up pops up this unverified, already public claim with an allegation that Trump, you know, was made second-hand, but it was about Trump. And that was sort of the end of that.
RYAN NOBLES:
Yeah. If there was a thesis in your book, and there are so many great points that you raise, and so many inside conversations that you guys reveal, it’s this idea that perhaps losing the 2020 election ultimately ended up benefiting Trump. What you write is, “The indictments, the convictions, the assassination attempts, the four years of exile that allowed him to shed the restraining forces of his first term, to assemble a team of true loyalists who’d spent years studying the levers of government and plotting how to seize them, all of it had paradoxically made Trump stronger, more ruthless, and more commanding than he could’ve been otherwise: the most powerful president of our lifetimes.” Trump himself has kind of hinted at this, right, that maybe losing–well, he would never say that he lost, but not retaining the White House in 2020 had made him more powerful. Was losing the 2020 election the best thing that ever happened to Trump?
JONATHAN SWAN:
I don’t–I don’t even think it’s disputable. I mean, if he had won that election he would’ve been hobbled. He was already pretty unpopular. Covid was raging, inflation was raging. Instead, Biden was the one who ate all of those conditions. And now, the whole point of this book, the title, “Regime Change,” is we’re watching presidential power expressed in a way that we haven’t seen in our lifetime. When George W. Bush took America to a war in Iraq and Afghanistan, it went through Congress, the branch of government that under the Constitution authorizes wars. Trump didn’t even talk to Congress, he just did it. When he went and snatched a sovereign head of state out of his bedroom in his pajamas in the middle of the night, he didn’t talk to Congress, he just did it. When he started a trade war with the whole world, he didn’t talk to anyone, he just did it. And then of course it takes weeks and months for the court system to catch up. He just changes facts on the ground. So he is governing like no president in our lifetime. And it occurred to us that we were covering a form of regime change in our own country. There’s no universe he would’ve been able to pull that off if he had just won a consecutive term.
RYAN NOBLES:
And Maggie, I’ll let you have the last word.
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
No, I was actually thinking about exactly this, listening to your interview with Roger Marshall. One of the things that that interregnum period let him do is continue grinding out any pockets of resistance to him in the Republican Party. And you saw it systematically. Remember, one of the first things that he did was start targeting the people who had voted to impeach him. And he would merrily write about, you know, “Ten to go,” or something like that when he had a win. He couldn’t do a lot of what he was doing even without going to Congress--Congress in other times would’ve voiced an objection, even without being consulted. You do hear some of that now a little. But it’s not at all what it would’ve been under other circumstances.
RYAN NOBLES:
Yeah, I would argue a very little. Yes, that’s an excellent point. Maggie Haberman, Jonathan Swan, this is an excellent read.
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
Thank you.
RYAN NOBLES:
Terrific reporting. Really well put-together. Thank you guys so much for being here.
JONATHAN SWAN:
Thanks for having us.
MAGGIE HABERMAN:
Thank you.
RYAN NOBLES:
Still ahead, progressive victories and affordability worries. What it will mean for the midterms. The panel is coming up next.
RYAN NOBLES:
Welcome back. We want to take a moment now to remember Alan Greenspan, who passed away this week. Greenspan served as the chair of the Federal Reserve for nearly two decades, helping guide the U.S. economy through a period of extraordinary growth and change. But to all of us here at NBC News, he was also the devoted husband of our dear colleague and friend, Andrea Mitchell. The two of them joined Meet the Press together in 2007.
[BEGIN TAPE]
TIM RUSSERT:
Alan Greenspan, this is not your first appearance on Meet the Press. That was back in 1974. I want to show you what it looked like back then. Let’s watch.
EDWIN NEWMAN:
Our guest today on Meet the Press is the new chairman of the President’s Council of Economic Advisors, Alan Greenspan.
TIM RUSSERT:
Other than a white shirt and different glasses, it’s pretty close. Not bad for 33 years.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
A few other differences.
ALAN GREENSPAN:
There’s a mildly different amount of hair, but I won’t comment on that.
TIM RUSSERT:
It’s been a great life, hasn’t it?
ALAN GREENSPAN:
It has.
TIM RUSSERT:
A musician.
ALAN GREENSPAN:
Yes.
TIM RUSSERT:
Presidential advisor, economist, husband.
ALAN GREENSPAN:
Yeah.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
He’s a great husband.
ALAN GREENSPAN:
That’s, a great husband. Yeah, that’s, I knew she’d say that.
TIM RUSSERT:
That was your cue.
ALAN GREENSPAN:
Yeah.
TIM RUSSERT:
And what’s your nickname for him?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
You want me to fess up --
TIM RUSSERT:
Come clean.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Can’t lie on Meet the Press. Sweet pea.
TIM RUSSERT:
I finally got it out, all these years. I wish you both many more years of irrational exuberance together.
ALAN GREENSPAN:
Thank you, Tim.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
And rational exuberance. Thank you Tim. Thank you.
[END TAPE]
RYAN NOBLES:
Alan Greenspan was 100 years old.
RYAN NOBLES:
Welcome back, the panel is here. Chief Washington correspondent for Puck, Leigh Ann Caldwell. Ashley Etienne, former communications director for Vice President Harris and Speaker Pelosi, and Marc Short, the former Trump legislative affairs director. Welcome to you all. Thank you guys for being here. So Leigh Ann, let’s talk about this tense meeting between President Trump and Senate Republicans. He refused to sign the bipartisan housing bill because he wants them to pass the SAVE America Act.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
Yeah.
RYAN NOBLES:
Those of us that cover Capitol Hill every day know there’s no chance they’re ever going to pay the SAVE America Act.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
No.
RYAN NOBLES:
What are your sources telling you about the growing frustrations inside the Senate Republican conference about the way the White House and Trump’s political arm are acting?
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
Well, first I think it’s important to note that Trump’s insistence on the SAVE America Act has completely paralyzed Congress. Not only did he not sign the housing — bipartisan housing bill, his nominee to be director of National Intelligence, he’s not allowing move through because of the SAVE America Act. The House floor was completely stalled this week. They had to leave town early because nothing could get through because of the SAVE America Act. So with that, that is extremely frustrating to, to members of Congress, especially Senate Republicans who think legislation like the bipartisan housing bill is good for voters heading into the midterms. It’s a key economic issue that addresses this. And what — but the president, he doesn’t think so. He thinks that the SAVE America Act is better for base voters. And there’s an ideological difference on how they think out a win in November.
RYAN NOBLES:
Well, listen, Marc, I’d like to get your take on this housing bill. You’ve been critical of it in the past. You say that it’s an expansion of federal government intervention into housing development and regulation. You think that goes too far. Do you think it actually hurts the Republicans’ messaging when it comes to affordability?
MARC SHORT:
Ryan, I think the president himself last week noted that this was Elizabeth Warren’s bill. He himself knows that basically if you’re going to continue to subsidize markets, or basically have the government tell you who’s allowed to buy a house and who’s not, that’s not going to make housing more affordable. It’s one more step in Republicans in the last two years basically embracing Democrat economics, whether that’s massive tariffs, whether that’s price controls, or now, you know, basically nationalizing private sector companies. And so you’ve seen the Republican Party basically abandon free markets. And they continue down this path, and you know, now Trump himself has decided it’s not good. But, you know, to Leigh Ann’s point, I think that for the president, he doesn’t care about the midterms because not just due to the fact that, you know, he views it as the Democrats — he can withstand Democrat attacks on him because he did it before –
RYAN NOBLES:
Right.
MARC SHORT:
– and surviving the couple impeachments. But frankly, he likes having an adversary. And an adversary, a foil, yeah, is going to be Jeffries, or whoever is going to be the Senate leader, in some ways, that’s more fun for him than Johnson and Thune being the adversary.
RYAN NOBLES:
Yeah, but how did Democrats --
ASHLEY ETIENNE:
And that’s a good legislation, right?
RYAN NOBLES:
But talk about --
MARC SHORT:
It’s not good legislation.
RYAN NOBLES:
Democrats think it’s good legislation. And it has had overwhelming bipartisan support. How did Democrats sell this bill to voters, especially given the fact that so many Republicans were involved in it?
ASHLEY ETIENNE:
Well, I mean, I think the reality is is this is a tremendous opportunity for Democrats. You’ve got more than 25 million Americans under the age of 35 that are still at home and with their parents because they can’t afford to leave their house because of housing prices are too high. And so the reality is this give Democrats an opportunity to really appeal to those voters. Those are the same voters that we lost ground with in 2024. So my advice to Democrats would be go in, micro-target, put ads up, micro-target those constituencies, even target their parents, and then bring this up as Donald Trump is not serious about addressing the economic pressures that everyday people are faced with.
RYAN NOBLES:
So we had a primary this weekend, or this week, Leigh Ann, on Tuesday. We saw progressive candidates, some that described themselves as socialists, win big races in some Democratic congressional districts. What do these progressive victories tell us about the reality of governing, if Democrats ultimately end up winning both or — both or even just one House or Senate majority?
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
Yeah, so if Democrats win control of the House, this is going to make it much more difficult for Hakeem Jeffries, who will be the speaker of the House in that case, to govern. You have a different faction of the party, perhaps a more rebellious faction of the party. But looking ahead to 2028, this is where it gets much more complicated. Democrats I talk to say that these socialists winning in these states’ blue seats aren’t going to jeopardize control of the House in November. But what it does is it sets up a big divide and fight within the party on who the nominee is going to be and what the electorate looks like heading into 2028 presidential election.
RYAN NOBLES:
And Ashley, you already seen President Trump sticking out ground when it comes to this label. He’s actually gone a step further and called them communists. Listen to what he had to say this week.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
These are not social Dumocrats, these are hardcore, godless communists. They’re godless communists.
[END TAPE]
RYAN NOBLES:
Are you concerned that messaging could hurt Democratic candidates in the fall?
ASHLEY ETIENNE:
No. I mean, I don’t think it’s Trump scare tactics and his name-calling that’s actually the threat to Democrats. It is what we heard from Senator Murphy, which is that there’s a disconnect between the party and sentiments on the ground that we have no new ideas, no vision. And so that’s why you’re seeing Democrats vote for these, these socialists, socialist Democrats against incumbents and even in these open seats. That’s why the party’s polling at 28%. That’s why it continues to bleed support among its base-vote voters. I’m primarily focused on Black voters right now that will make the difference in some of these highly-competitive races. I wrote an op-ed for Essence Magazine that really laid out the case in the autopsy that the Democratic ecosystem puts $8 billion into these elections and less than 1% of that is actually engaging Black voters. So that’s a trend we’re seeing with a whole host of voters, and the party, it has to --
RYAN NOBLES:
Yeah, let’s get Marc in here.
ASHLEY ETIENNE:
Yeah, I was going to say the party has to address this or we’re going to lose races.
RYAN NOBLES:
Marc, was the economy though the biggest issue here? Is the name calling going to work for President Trump? We have less than 30 seconds.
MARC SHORT:
The economy remains the number-one issue, affordability remains the number-one issue. But when Democrats nominate crazy, this isn’t just garden-variety socialists, these are people who have called in their chants, “Death to America,” and with some of the rallies they’ve attended. So, but I agree with Leigh Ann. I think ultimately a midterm is a referendum on the president and power.
RYAN NOBLES:
Yup, we’ve got to run.
MARC SHORT:
But it’ll be a problem for them coming and governing.
RYAN NOBLES:
All right. Thanks everyone for being here, appreciate it. Great discussion. Before we go, be sure to join my colleagues and I — and me on Saturday, July 4th, for all of our coverage of America’s 250th birthday on NBC, including special editions of the TODAY Show and NBC Nightly News. That’s all for today though. Thank you so much for watching. We’ll be back next week because if it’s Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
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