KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: Breaking point. Protests erupt after another fatal shooting by federal agents in Minneapolis.
MAYOR JACOB FREY:
How many more Americans need to die or get badly hurt for this operation to end?
GOV. TIM WALZ:
We want calm and peace and normalcy back to our lives. They want chaos.
BORDER PATROL COMMANDER GREG BOVINO:
This looks like a situation where an individual wanted to do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The Trump administration admits ICE has made mistakes but stands by the enforcement strategy as public outrage intensifies.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
They’re gonna make mistakes sometimes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
My guests this morning: Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota, and Democratic Senator Adam Schiff of California. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Chief Capitol Hill Correspondent Ryan Nobles; USA TODAY Washington Bureau Chief Susan Page; Ashley Etienne, former communications director for Vice President Kamala Harris; and Republican strategist Matt Gorman. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. The killing of another American citizen has put the country on edge. Federal agents shot and killed 37-year-old Alex Pretti, an ICU nurse, on Saturday morning, after the recent killing of Renee Nicole Good, a 37-year-old mother, in Minneapolis by DHS officers less than 3 weeks ago. This latest shooting seen on camera from multiple angles. A warning — this video is disturbing. Pretti appears to be filming the immigration officials on a cell phone, before he is seemingly pepper-sprayed and taken to the ground. Then, at least 10 shots are heard. DHS leadership claiming Pretti had a weapon, while Minnesota officials say he had a permit to carry. It is not clear if he brandished a weapon at the officers. Saturday’s shooting comes as the images out of Minnesota this week were already driving the country to an inflection point: protesters pepper-sprayed, a little boy taken into ICE custody, a U.S. citizen forced from his home barely clothed. All of it raising legal questions about the administration’s actions, while more than 60% of voters say ICE tactics have gone too far. And for the first time the Trump administration is admitting that mistakes have been made, while also blaming local officials for not cooperating with ICE.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
They’re going to make mistakes sometimes. ICE is going to be too rough with somebody, or, you know, they’re dealing with rough people. They’re going to make a mistake sometimes. It can happen. We feel terribly.
VICE PRES. JD VANCE:
We can do a good job of enforcing our immigration laws without the chaos, but it actually requires the cooperation of state and local officials.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche. Mr. Blanche, welcome back to Meet the Press.
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
Good morning.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good morning. Thank you for being here. I do want to start by watching one of those videos of the shooting. And again, I do want to warn our viewers, this is disturbing. Take a look.
[PLAY TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Blanche, the administration spent all day Saturday arguing that Alex Pretti posed a threat to law enforcement. What exactly do you see in that video that posed a threat to law enforcement?
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
Well, I’ll tell you what I don’t see. And I don’t see protesting happening. And this narrative that what was happening on that yesterday morning was protesting interrupted by ICE is not what we see. I also do not see a single state and local law enforcement officer there to help. And that should be the narrative that we’re talking about, is that what we have is ICE doing isolated operations to get criminals off the street, with zero cooperation from the governor, from leadership in Congress, or from the mayor. And so when you see what we just observed, was that peaceful protesting? Of course not. That was a very violent occurrence because ICE cannot do their job effectively when law enforcement — local law enforcement refuses to help. And that is what is so tragic about what happened yesterday and what’s been happening in Minneapolis for the past several weeks, is that ICE is doing all of this work, doing their jobs, and local law enforcement are not being allowed to do a single thing to help. And that is dangerous, as we saw yesterday morning.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Blanche, respectfully, there are only 600 police officers in Minneapolis. There are 3,000 ICE agents. Local officials there say it strains credulity to think that they can back up every ICE official. But I want to stick to the video and what happened yesterday, the specifics of it. What exactly threatened those law enforcement officials? Did at any point Mr. Pretti brandish a gun?
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
I can see the same video that everybody else can see. It’s been analyzed up and down for the past 24 hours. But there’s obviously an investigation that’s ongoing. Secretary Noem talked about that yesterday, which is what we would expect anytime a tragedy like this occurs. But I disagree with you when you say, “What was there that looked as if there was a confrontation that was –” We don’t know what happened in the minutes leading up to what we just watched. We don’t know what ICE saw, what ICE heard. That’s part of the investigation that’s going to be happening. But what we did not see, again, and we cannot avoid this conversation. What we did not see is a single cop helping with that isolated, targeted effort by ICE to arrest a criminal.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Did –
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
And you’re right, there are three — go ahead, sorry.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Did you see him at any point brandish a gun? Have you been told by law enforcement there on the ground that at any point he brandished a gun, that he threatened them with a gun? The video shows he’s holding up a cell phone.
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
No, you can’t see everything that’s happening. I mean, what you do see is you see several ICE officers surrounding him. You see a violent interaction with the man who was shot. And so we don’t know. The video — no matter how many times you look at it, no matter how many different angles that we see, there’s a lot that we don’t see. And that’s exactly why you have to have an investigation, which is exactly what DHS is doing, and exactly what we would hope that they would do. But you can’t tell exactly what happened. It was a very instant, violent — law enforcement, ICE has a very tough job. It is very hard when they’re walking, trying to do their job, and there are agitators and rioters everywhere. These men and women are not protesting. They are not peacefully protesting. They are trying to impede and obstruct ICE, and it makes the job that our men and women have to do virtually impossible to do without interactions like that. And yes, yesterday’s shooting was a tragedy, and yes, we feel a ton of sympathy for the family and friends of the deceased. But make no mistake about it, this was entirely avoidable if we had a governor, if we had a mayor, if we had leadership in Washington and over in Minnesota that actually cared about their citizens.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Blanche –
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
This should never have happened because there would be law enforcement on the streets helping ICE.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Blanche, I just want to stay on this. The local officials do say Alex Pretti was a lawful gun owner with a permit to carry. The video seems to show at one moment an officer removing a gun in the seconds before Mr. Pretti was shot. Was he disarmed before those shots were fired?
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
I do not know, and nobody else knows, either. That’s why we’re doing an investigation. It does appear that he was armed. I have heard the same thing you have, that he was lawfully armed, and that’s something that’s important in this country, and there’s nothing wrong with anybody lawfully carrying firearms. But whether he was disarmed, or whether he pulled the gun on law enforcement, whether law enforcement saw him go for the gun, what they have to do is they have to protect themselves. They have to protect the public around them, and we’ll see what happens. But just make no mistake about it, this was an incredibly split-second decision that had to be made by ICE officers confronting a very complicated, violent situation with not a single local law enforcement officer in sight.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Alex Pretti, I mean, he is a member of the public. He’s a resident there. I mean, this is an American citizen. He’s an ICU nurse at a VA hospital. He appears to be shot some ten times. There are a group of law enforcement officials who pummel him, who spray tear gas at him, pepper spray. Why shouldn’t every American be bothered by what they see in this video, Mr. Blanche? Are you bothered by what you see in this video?
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
Absolutely. Every American should be bothered. But what should they be bothered by? They should be bothered that ICE is going on an isolated arrest to arrest a criminal, and they have zero support from law enforcement. The narrative here cannot --
KRISTEN WELKER:
But shouldn’t they be able to make decisions on their own, Mr. Blanche?
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
What happened yesterday --
KRISTEN WELKER:
You’re talking about state and local officials, and that is a debate worth having. What, if any, support are they getting? But in that instance, should they be able to make a decision about how to respond on their own? And if they can’t, should they not be in that position in the first place?
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
They make decisions all day, every day. There are 3,000 ICE officers in one city. We have tens of thousands of ICE officers all over the country. They make very difficult decisions all day, every day, trying to protect the American people. And what we see all over the country — save a few sanctuary cities like Minneapolis — is we see cooperation and support. And so the reason why we don’t see this violence all over the country is because in every single jurisdiction — save a few, like Minneapolis — there is cooperation. You work together with local law enforcement. Police are there to assist with crowd control, and rioters, and the violent acts that we see happening. And again, this is not a peaceful protest. He was not protesting peacefully. He was interrupting an ICE operation –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Please finish.
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
He was interrupting an ICE operation, and that led to a very tragic occurrence that every single person in this country hoped did not happen. But make no mistake about it, you cannot look at a ten-second video and judge what happened. You have to look at it from a full, full situation of what’s been happening in Minneapolis for the past several weeks, which is a simple fact. One city in this country do we have these problems. One city, and that’s Minneapolis.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But Mr. Blanche, you’re --
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
That’s not a reflection of ICE, that’s a reflection of that city.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You’re saying he wasn’t protesting peacefully, and yet the video before shows him holding up a cell phone, directing traffic. The video after shows him being pummeled by these law enforcement. Everyone has now seen this video across the country, with this man holding up a cell phone. And part of the outrage that people are expressing is that they feel as though the federal government is asking them to believe something that they don’t see with their own two eyes. Is that what the administration is asking of the American people, to believe that he was violent when the video, based on what everyone has seen so far, does not show that?
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
Well, first of all, I did not say he was violent. I said he was not protesting peacefully. And you just described what every American has seen, which is video, shortly ahead of the incident, where he was screaming in the face of ICE. He had a phone up right into ICE’s face. You tell me, is that protesting peacefully? I mean, we all see the same thing. I mean, you shouldn’t try to gaslight the administration about what happened. That was not a peaceful protest. And yes, what happened afterwards is tragic. It is horrible. It is heartbreaking. But make no mistake about it, that would’ve never happened, that would’ve never happened — and it doesn’t happen in cities around this country every single day — but for the complete failure, the complete failure by the mayor and by the governor to do anything — to do anything to protect their citizens. They park their officers blocks and blocks away while they just let ICE go, and they let citizens just come and do whatever they want to try to torment and to try to agitate officers doing their job.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Blanche, this shooting happened Saturday morning. Mere hours later, Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem and others labeled Mr. Pretti a domestic terrorist. His family released a statement that reads in part, quote, “The sickening lies told about our son by the administration are reprehensible and disgusting. Alex is clearly not holding a gun when attacked by Trump’s murdering and cowardly ICE thugs. He has his phone in his right hand, and his empty left hand is raised above his head while trying to protect the woman ICE just pushed down, all while being pepper sprayed.” What is your response to his family?
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
My response is that we are — we have nothing but sympathy for the family of him. We do. But make no mistake, this is an investigation that’s ongoing. And long before Secretary Noem took the stage yesterday, the mayor and the governor took their own narrative and said a bunch of things that were just as false, just as misleading, and just as horrible as anything that we’ve heard over the past month. And so we will do everything that we need to do to protect the men and women of ICE when the state and local government refuse to do so. And so yes, we are sympathetic, President Trump is sympathetic, the attorney general is sympathetic, ICE is sympathetic. Nobody wants any lives to be taken. But we are doing very important work in very difficult circumstances to make this country safe. There was an isolated arrest effort yesterday to arrest somebody that did not belong in this country, he’s here illegally, and he’s a convicted felon. They should be able to — ICE should be able to do that with cooperation and support, not with what we saw happening yesterday.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But let me ask, just big picture, Mr. Blanche, is the death of U.S. citizens a price the Trump administration is willing to pay to carry out its immigration policies?
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
What does that have to do with whether it was a U.S. citizen or not? Any death is wrong.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, two of the deaths were U.S. citizens --
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
Any death should not happen in law enforcement.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But two of the people killed were U.S. citizens. President Trump said his goal was to deport the “worst of the worst” people. My question for you is, is this part of the collateral damage, something that the administration is willing to accept as a part of its crackdown on people who are here illegally?
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
It shouldn’t be. It should not be. And you don’t see it anywhere in this country. I’m very confused about why the conversation’s about what you’re talking about instead of focusing on what really matters, which is why, in one city, in one place, do we have these problems. We deport ten times the number of illegal aliens out of Texas than we do out of Minneapolis. Why do we hear nothing out of Texas about any of the same problems that we have in Minneapolis? I’ll tell you why. Because in Texas we have the cooperation and support of local law enforcement so that we can do these operations safely, keeping U.S. citizens and others protected and safe. That is not what we have in Minneapolis. And the fact that it’s the administration that’s being blamed for the utter failure of leadership in Minneapolis is not right, it’s not appropriate, and it’s also not true --
KRISTEN WELKER:
But are you saying those officers bear responsibility, those federal officers who fired ten shots yesterday bear no responsibility for the death of this 37-year-old ICU nurse?
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
I did not say that. Don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t say that. I said there’s an investigation ongoing. But I said that the story and the narrative around this cannot be just those officers that were forced to do what they had to do yesterday to keep the operation going as it should go, without any support. That has to be the narrative, that has to be what we’re talking about. And the fact that the only thing we’re talking about is somehow blaming officers, blaming the federal men that were on the scene that day, and not looking at why it happened, not looking at why it’s only in Minneapolis that we see this violence, we are missing the narrative and missing what we should be talking about.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That’s the broader backdrop debate. But let me talk to you more broadly about the actions of federal agents in Minnesota this week. I want you to look at these pictures, Mr. Blanche: a protester on the ground being pepper-sprayed; a five-year-old being detained; a U.S. citizen being pulled out of his home half-naked, later released upon determination that he was wrongfully detained. Are federal agents acting humanely, Mr. Blanche?
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
Yes. Our agents are acting humanely. Their jobs are very, very difficult. It is a very difficult place to be, going out and trying to arrest these violent felons with no support from local law enforcement, with no support from the governor. Remember, there’s a much easier way to do this. When these violent criminals who are here illegally are ready to get out of prison, the mayor could just let us know, we could go get them from prison and deport them. They refuse to do that. And so the result of that is that ICE officers have to go out onto the streets and make arrests, and that is tough work. These are very difficult times. And it is something where you see thousands of arrests, and you’ve identified two or three things that are pointed to as being wrong, or being too aggressive, or not being appropriate. That’s not fair to the men and women that are doing this every day.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Again, there are 600 police officers in Minneapolis, compared to 3,000 ICE agents. I do want to shift gears, though. I want to ask you quickly about the Epstein files. When you were here back in December, you said the Justice Department will comply with the Epstein Files Transparency Act. Quote — you said, “Next week and the week after.” DOJ is now 37 days past the statute’s December 19 deadline. Less than 1% of the files have been released. So Mr. Blanche, when will all of the Epstein files be released?
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
Look, we’ve been working literally seven days a week to go through all the materials. But there is nothing more important than protecting the victims, and that means that every single page that we’re going to release, we have to lay eyes on and make sure that we’re redacting all appropriate information. We will not rush that process. We will not risk victim information being released. And I would hope that Congress doesn’t want us to do that. And I would expect that they expect us to do our jobs. And so we have over 500 Department of Justice lawyers working on it every day. I expect that we will see — we will see the release of the materials soon.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So when will it be released? Soon? How soon?
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
Well, listen, there are millions and millions of pages we’re looking at, and I’m not going to create an artificial deadline that I then miss for our men and women that are working on it. But we’re working on it very hard. And when we know a date of release, we’ll let the public know and let Congress know. But it is soon. It is very soon. We’ve been working on it now for over a month, reviewing hundreds of thousands of pages over the course of every few days. And we’re continuing to do that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche. Thank you so much for your time this morning. We really appreciate it.
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE:
Thank you, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Earlier this morning, I spoke to Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota.
[START TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I know it is a somber weekend. This is the second of your constituents to be killed by federal law enforcement in Minnesota. What was your reaction to the video of the killing of Alex Pretti and the claims by the Trump administration that he posed a threat to federal officials, Senator?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
I was absolutely horrified. There have been three killings in Minneapolis since the beginning of the year. And two have been committed by federal agents, one ICE, and the other border control. That’s what we’re dealing with here. And they’re also, of course, in the suburbs and the rural areas. There are 3,000 of them, outnumbering our local police in Minneapolis-St. Paul. There are only 1,100 sworn officers. So when I saw that video and learned about Alex from his parents, who basically have asked us to tell the truth because the Trump administration chose to call him a domestic terrorist. And I’m just going to read their words, their parents’ words — his parents’ words. They said, “Alex was a kind-hearted soul who cared deeply for his family and friends and also the American veterans whom he cared for as an ICU nurse at Minneapolis VA Hospital.” And then they asked us to tell the truth about him. So this guy was loved at that hospital. He had one of the most, I’d say, self-sacrificing jobs you can have. He chose to serve veterans, often in the last days of their lives. So when you see the video, and many Americans have seen it, you can see it from all different angles. What you see is someone brandishing a cellphone who is simply there with a cellphone helping someone up, a woman up, as his parents point out, when she had slipped. And so when I hear these officials from the Trump administration describe this video in ways that simply aren’t true, I just keep thinking, “Your eyes don’t lie.” You know, the American people aren’t sitting at a Trump cabinet meeting having to say everything to make him happy. They’re going to make their own judgments. And that is why we are making very clear one simple message from our police chiefs to the people of Minnesota, the vast majority of them, to our local officials in the suburbs and the city and many rural areas: ICE needs to leave our state. They are making us less safe, not more safe.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let me ask you about where this does go from here. Because the Department of Homeland Security has blocked the state from investigating the shooting. A federal judge in Minnesota last night blocked the Trump administration from, quote, “destroying or altering evidence” in the case. Governor Walz said yesterday, quote, “The federal government cannot be trusted to lead this investigation.” Senator, how will you ensure that this investigation is transparent and can be trusted by the public?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
We must have transparent investigations, not only of the shooting of Alex Pretti, but of course the shooting of Renee Good. Again, two people with no criminal record, no criminal record. One was a poet. One was a nurse. And so how we’re handling this in Minnesota is investigations have been launched by our state. In the case of Alex Pretti, the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, which is a group of seasoned professionals, not political — in fact, a Republican legislator has just made a statement defending that agency — they are going to be investigating this on their own. I would hope that they get access to everything that they need. We also have an investigation launched by the county attorney and Attorney General Ellison of the shooting of Renee Good. Because in this case, the Renee Good shooting, the FBI agent just resigned two days ago, who had been shut down from investigating that case. She resigned from our local FBI. We’ve also had six U.S. attorneys, well-respected, the former acting U.S. attorney that ran the office and is in charge of all the fraud, they all resigned reportedly because they were not allowed to handle this case in a way that’s consistent with law enforcement. And finally, the International Police Chiefs Association, not a liberal group, has just come out throughout the nation saying that, look, the laws have to be followed. And this isn’t about the investigation. This is about what’s going on on an ongoing basis. And that police practices have to be followed. Law enforcement is based on trust. And we have had a total breakdown of trust. We had 50,000 peaceful protesters — I was with them — that marched without a problem. And then you have a guy with a cell phone who’s killed by six federal agents the next morning.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, let me ask you. Because you are calling for ICE to leave Minnesota. As you know, some Democrats are going so far as to call for abolishing ICE. Would you go that far? Do you think that ICE should be abolished altogether? How do you see it?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
We’re always going to have some immigration enforcement in this country and border control. I think most Americans believe that. But the way that this agency has been functioning is completely against every tenet of law enforcement. So before us right now we have a bill about funding them, giving them more money. I’m not voting for that. And I didn’t vote for tripling their budget over the summer. Their budget went to $75 billion more. They’re now bigger than the FBI. And when they’re killing two constituents in my state, and they’re taking two-year-olds out of the arms of their mom, and they are taking an elder Hmong man out of his house and putting him out there in his underwear and then figuring out they have the wrong man. No, I am not voting for this funding. And what could we do to overhaul them? Oh, let me start. New leadership, stopping these surges across the country not just in my state, training them like they were supposed to be trained, not just 47 days, which the president picked out because it’s his — he’s the 47th president, mandatory body cameras, stopping ramming into people’s houses without a judicial warrant. And I could go on.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you though because DHS already has funding for the next long stretch. How will cutting off their funding, voting to frankly partially shut down the government, improve this situation, Senator, particularly coming on the heels of the longest government shutdown in U.S. history?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
Our Republican colleagues have to stand up. They are violating — right now ICE, border control, what you’ve seen, violating the First Amendment. If they care about the Constitution, they should care about this. Violating the Second Amendment, the NRA has come out and said, “I’m sorry. You can’t blame Alex simply because he was a legal permit holder,” violating the Fourth Amendment of search and seizure. So my point here is our Republican colleagues have to stand up and stop this. And no, I am not voting for this funding.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask about another issue that has been front and center in your state. Dozens of people in Minnesota have been charged and convicted with stealing millions of dollars of taxpayer money from government programs. Do you think Governor Walz has done enough to stop fraud in your state, Senator?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
Governor Walz has said that he should have done more. He has been clear about that. So as a former prosecutor, what I believe is that people who rip off the taxpayers have to go to jail. There have been at least 90 people who have been charged so far, 80 under the past administration, additional ones now. I was a strong supporter, personally advocated for more funding to take on these righteous fraud cases. And also I actually advocated for the person, Joe Thompson, the lead prosecutor on these cases, to be acting attorney during the Trump administration. He’s a fantastic prosecutor. And sadly, what happened was he and a number of the lead fraud prosecutors had to resign last week because, in their view, they were asked to do things that they felt were unethical involving the Renee Good investigation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, let me ask you. You filed paperwork this week widely seen as making your first moves towards a run for governor in Minnesota. Are you running for governor in Minnesota?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
Right now, today, I have to tell you, Kristen, that’s for later. I clearly filed papers, and I love my job as a senator. But I love my state more. I am focused on one thing, and that is getting ICE out of our state. There is no time for politics right now. There is only time for that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you this. How, if you do run, how would you address the fraud differently than Governor Walz did?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
Two things, one, I’ve mentioned. And that is that, as a prosecutor, I believe that people have to go to jail when they rip off taxpayers. That is number one paramount. You can’t have people doing that. Number two, we have to change the state system clearly so there is a better process in place immediately, so this kind of thing can never happen again.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senator Amy Klobuchar, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, Democratic Senator Adam Schiff of California joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. And joining me now is Democratic Senator Adam Schiff of California. Senator Schiff, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. ADAM SCHIFF:
Thank you. Good to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It’s good to have you back. Let me dive right in. And you heard Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche defended the actions of the federal officials in that video yesterday. He says at the root of the problem, state and local officials are not coordinating with federal officials, with ICE agents and other federal officials who are there. How do you respond to that charge, Senator Schiff?
SEN. ADAM SCHIFF:
Well, first of all, it’s up to the state and local governments how they decide to prioritize their law enforcement. If they make the decision, “We’re going to prioritize going after violent criminals,” it is not up to the federal government to say, “No, you won’t. You’re going to help us with massive ICE raids in urban centers, going after people who are simply undocumented and have no other criminal record.” The federal government may make that poor policy decision, may violate the president’s promises to go after violent criminals. But they do not have the right to coerce states and local governments into essentially becoming an arm of federal immigration enforcement. So he’s flat wrong about that. And what’s more, for him to blame the cities and blame the states for flooding the streets of America with thousands of poorly trained agents who are shooting Americans in cold blood in the street and through windshields is despicable. What the American people have seen is horrifying. And I was really struck by a couple things of your interview with him. First, you asked him repeatedly, “Is there any evidence that you have seen or heard that Alex Pretti drew the weapon on agents or brandished the weapon?” And he could not answer that question. And you know if there was evidence of that, he would have said so. He then accused you of gaslighting the administration, which is also absurd. He would have you disbelieve anything you see. Now, he calls for an investigation. Look, I was a prosecutor for almost six years. There does need to be an investigation of both of these killings and a lot more. But no one, no one can have confidence that DHS will do that properly when the head of that agency has called these victims “domestic terrorists” without knowing anything. When the White House is calling them “domestic terrorists,” who can believe an investigation led by people who have already reached their conclusion? Local officials, local law enforcement needs to be involved in these investigations. It needs to be objective. And we simply can’t accept an administration that says, “Don’t believe your lying eyes.”
KRISTEN WELKER:
And that takes me to my next question. What, if any, role can Congress play? Obviously, the government could partially shut down again on Friday if Democrats vote against this DHS funding measure. My question for you, Senator: Are you prepared to vote against DHS funding if it means partially shutting down the government, again coming on the heels of an incredibly long shutdown?
SEN. ADAM SCHIFF:
Well, I’m not giving ICE or border patrol another dime given how these agencies are operating. Democrats are not going to fund that. The government will shut down if Republicans insist that that be joined with other government funding. It will be a Republican decision. They understand we’re not going to go along with this. And we hope some of the Republicans in the Senate may see those scenes in the streets and be as repelled as we are and vote against that continuation of violence also. But if they don’t, it will be their decision whether they couple that funding for these ICE agents and border patrol agents with all these other government agencies. They will make the decision, they’re in the majority, if they want to shut down the government so they can perpetuate this violence. But I’m not going to be a part of it. And I think anyone who votes to give them more money to do this will share in the responsibility and see more Americans die in our cities as a result.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, let me ask you because Republicans have already passed $170 billion in extra DHS funding through what they’ve dubbed the One, Big Beautiful Bill, which would be legally available for the Trump administration to spend even if DHS funding lapses. So what would the exact impact be of withholding funding now?
SEN. ADAM SCHIFF:
Well, it would certainly, I hope, stop it from becoming even worse. They have thrown so much money at these agencies. They don’t know what to do with it. And there is no question that when we actually get a chance to do oversight again, which I hope will happen after this November, you are going to find all kinds of corruption in how that money is going out. I have no question you will find sole-source contracting going out to friends of people in the administration and money wasted hand over fist. They talk a good game about cutting down on waste, fraud, and abuse. There is going to be enormous waste, fraud, and abuse in DHS given how money is being spent without any kind of real oversight. So I wouldn’t make the problem worse to begin with. But I would also overhaul those agencies. They need to be completely overhauled from top to bottom. That is going to require — at least at this moment until there’s a change in the majority in Congress — some Republicans of good faith to work with us to do. Otherwise, we’re going to have to rely on the tool that we have used before, which is litigation. And we will certainly be litigating over these abuses.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, to that point, I want to ask you about something President Trump said. He said if Democrats win back the House, he expects to be impeached. You, of course, led the first impeachment against President Trump during his first term. What say you? Do you think — would you move to try to impeach President Trump if Democrats win back the House? Would you support that?
SEN. ADAM SCHIFF:
I would focus on the most effective remedies when that time comes that can stop the abuses that we’re seeing throughout the federal government. So I don’t want to pre-judge what those tools will be. But there is no question that we are seeing rampant corruption and illegality from the top down, whether it’s the corrupt meme coin schemes or the acceptance of massive gifts from foreign governments or all of the other corruption this administration, all the crypto deals of the first family. You name it. There is all kinds of corruption. And the worst form is the kind that is resulting in death in our streets. So there is going to be an accounting in one form or another when that time comes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senator Adam Schiff, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. When we come back, we look back at how America’s neighbors contemplated annexation fears. Our Meet the Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. As NBC celebrates 100 years on the air, our Meet the Press Minute looks back to U.S.-Canada relations. President Trump came into office threatening to make Canada the 51st state, and this week he continued to ramp up his criticism of America’s northern neighbor. The issue has been discussed before, including in 1977 when Canadian Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau joined Meet the Press, addressing concerns of possible annexation by the U.S.
[BEGIN TAPE]
ROWLAND EVANS:
Perhaps Canada, with its geographic proximity, same culture, same language except for Quebec, parts of your country would like to annex itself to the United States. Would that be so bad for us?
PRIME MINISTER PIERRE TRUDEAU:
Well, it might not be so bad for you if some parts of Canada wanted to annex itself to you. It might be bad for that particular part of Canada, but that’s another question. But by virtue of the same argument, if some want to annex themselves to you, some might not want to annex themselves to you. And some might feel that the business of being so friendly with the United States is not to their advantage, as has happened in this hemisphere with other countries. But I really don’t want to speculate at any great length on these hypotheses, which in my view will not — will not happen.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, the panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here: NBC News Chief Capitol Hill correspondent Ryan Nobles; Susan Page, Washington Bureau Chief for USA TODAY; Ashley Etienne, former communications director for Vice President Harris and Speaker Pelosi; and Republican strategist Matt Gorman. Welcome to all of you. Susan, let me start with you. Boy, this feels like an inflection point in Minneapolis, and frankly for the country. What do you make of this moment?
SUSAN PAGE:
I think we’ll look back at this weekend as being a pivot point. In an era of smartphones, you don’t need to believe either federal officials or reporters because you can see with your own eyes what happened on the streets of Minneapolis. We already saw six in ten Americans saying ICE is going too far. And it was interesting in your interview with Todd Blanche, the deputy attorney general, he gave no signs that they are going to back off.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That’s absolutely right. Ryan, and to that point, what is Congress going to do about it?
RYAN NOBLES:
Well, at each stage of this debate Democrats have felt powerless, that there isn’t much that they can do to stand in the way of the Trump administration’s push on immigration. But this is unique in that there is a funding deadline at the end of next week. And Democrats control almost all the power when it comes to this. The House has passed all of their funding bills. They decided to package everything all in one big bunch. And there are a number of Senate Democrats, enough Senate Democrats, saying, “I’m going to vote no on this package,” which is a direct shot at the Trump administration to change things, and change things immediately. If they don’t, we’re very likely headed to a government shutdown, at least a partial government shutdown, by the end of the week.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Matt, it’s so interesting. The president, the vice president acknowledged this week mistakes have been made. To Ryan’s point, the pressure point will come from Democrats. But do you see anything changing?
MATT GORMAN:
Well, let’s talk this out for a second. So we’re going to go headlong into a shutdown again with Democrats. ICE funding, as you point out in several of your interviews, will not really be touched operationally because that was funded through the Big, Beautiful Bill. So they will, though, in the middle of the worst snowstorm we’ve had in years, defund FEMA. So good luck with that. But if you were to ask me 24 hours ago, I felt we were headed towards a path down de-escalation. I think the Vance visit was helpful, the meeting with Ellison. Now, look, I still think the way out of this, both in the Senate, in Minneapolis, is one in the same. I expect still de-escalation. There will be some performative stuff in the Senate. But some sort of agreement on detainers around, say, violent felonies and a hard reset across the board in a way that simplifies it. The Senate way out and the Minneapolis way out is now joined and is similar now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Ashley, do you see de-escalation as a possibility, particularly when a number of Democrats are calling to actually get rid of ICE, although Senator Klobuchar did not, notably.
ASHLEY ETIENNE:
I don’t see it happening. I mean, you saw how dug in Blanche was early today, to Susan’s point. But here’s the real reality. There has got to be — someone has to rein in the lawlessness of this agency. They’re terrorizing communities, kidnapping kids, executing American citizens on the streets, and lying about it. The American people have been betrayed by their government, by their president, by the Republican Party that remains silent in this moment. Kristen, listen to this. Speaker Johnson, who proclaims to be a Christian, has said absolutely nothing and done even less on this particular issue. No statement. No oversight. No investigation. They’re complicit in what’s happening right now, and that’s the real issue here. They want to — as much as they like to deflect blame, put it on Democrats, local law enforcement, they’ve got the blood of Renee and Alex on their hands. And so kudos to Democrats for doing what Republicans don’t have the courage to do, and that’s to hold this agency accountable.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Of course, the backdrop to this, Ryan, the midterm elections.
RYAN NOBLES:
Yeah, and that’s got to be in the back of the minds of all of these moderate Republicans who could have the type of ability to stand up to the administration, either publicly or privately, and say, “Something has got to give. I’m the one that’s going to be on the ballot here in the next nine months. Mr. President, you’re never going to be on the ballot again. You have to do something to give me an exit valve here.” Because you had an issue like immigration, which was among the strongest issues for Republicans, heading now to a situation where it’s becoming a net negative, especially if you’re in somewhat of a swing district. So this is going to become a real problem for Republicans as this goes forward. And if it’s caught up in this fight over government funding leading into this weekend, who gets the blame on that? That’s something that has to be in the back of all of their minds.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Susan, how much of a drag do you see this in the midterms, or is it just the economy?
SUSAN PAGE:
You know, we know that President Trump is capable of making a big U-turn on policy. Remember Greenland? But on this one, we don’t see him doing that on this issue, as Ryan said, so central to his appeal and one that’s becoming a negative. He is, so far, doubling down. Now, a risk I think for Democrats, too. You saw in your interviews, both Klobuchar and Schiff, back away from the idea of abolishing ICE, which sounds a lot like “defund the police.” But the big risks here are with the administration, and so far, they’re staying the course.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What is the right message for Democrats who are trying to walk a fine line on that point?
ASHLEY ETIENNE:
I mean, I think it is what people saw with their own eyes. It is that you have a rogue agency that is not focused on deporting criminals. They’re focused on terrorizing American communities. That’s what’s at play here, and so I think that is the strongest argument going to this fight. But I will say this, though. The way that we won 40 seats in the midterms in ‘18 was that we took the Colin Powell approach. It was overwhelming your enemy with decisive force. So the Democrats have to continue to hit Republicans and the president on all of these issues. He’s double digits down on every issue, from the economy to ICE.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Final thought for you, Matt? What do we see from Republicans? Do they run on immigration or do they have to change course here?
MATT GORMAN:
The economy’s the biggest issue we’re seeing across the board in the midterms. There’s opportunity cost for both parties if you’re taking your eye off that. I mean, I was there at the NRCC in 2018. Health care was a millstone from almost the first weeks of the Trump presidency. It’s much more fluid this time around. You’re seeing some positive economic indicators. We’ll see if that can continue. We laid a bet, we have to let it play out.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, guys. Great conversation on a really big Sunday. Thank you so much for being here. That is all for today. Thank you so much for watching. We’ll be back next week, because if it’s Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
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