KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: Shutdown battle. With government funding set to run out in just two days, the White House threatens mass firings of federal workers.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
He’s not the king. He can’t just dictate what happens. He said he doesn’t need Democrats. Well, then he doesn’t know how to count.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
They’re not even pretending as if they want to find common ground.
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
What the Democrats have done here is take the federal government as a hostage.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Can a deal be reached? I’ll talk exclusively to the Senate Majority Leader, Republican John Thune of South Dakota, and the Senate Minority Leader, Democrat Chuck Schumer of New York. Plus: Facing charges. Former FBI Director James Comey is charged with lying to Congress and obstruction, just days after President Trump publicly called for the attorney general to prosecute him.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Comey’s a sick person. I think he’s a sick guy actually. He did terrible things at the FBI.
JAMES COMEY:
I have great confidence in the federal judicial system. I’m innocent. So, let’s have a trial.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me for insight and analysis are: David Remnick, editor of The New Yorker; Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan; and former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson. Welcome to Sunday; it’s a special edition of Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News headquarters in New York, the longest-running show in television history, this is a special edition of Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. With funding set to run out in two days, a deeply divided Washington is preparing for a government shutdown. But last night, President Trump agreed to a White House meeting with the top four congressional leaders, with Democrats demanding health insurance subsidies be extended as part of negotiations. Republicans need at least seven Democrats to support the short-term funding bill that already passed the House. This morning, there’s also growing scrutiny over whether President Trump is using the justice department to carry out political revenge. Former FBI Director James Comey was indicted on Thursday after a career prosecutor who refused to bring charges resigned amid pressure from Mr. Trump and was replaced by a former personal lawyer of his who has no experience as a prosecutor. The president suggested others will be next:
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
It's not a list, but I think there'll be others. I mean they're corrupt. These were corrupt radical left Democrats because Comey essentially was a Dem — he's worse than a Democrat. I would say the Democrats are better than Comey. But — no, there will be others. That's my opinion. They weaponized the Justice Department, like nobody in history. What they've done is terrible. And so I would, I hope — frankly, I hope there are others because you can't let this happen to a country.
[END TAPE]
On Saturday, I spoke with Senate Majority Leader John Thune before President Trump agreed to meet congressional leaders over the shutdown.
[BEGIN TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Leader Thune, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
Thank you, Kristen. Nice to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here on a big weekend. We are going to get to the funding battle on Capitol Hill in just a moment. But I do want to start with the indictment of former FBI Director James Comey, who is, as you know, an outspoken critic of President Trump. And it comes as the president publicly pushed his Attorney General Pam Bondi to prosecute Mr. Comey in a social media post last week. Let me ask you, Leader Thune, do you believe the Justice Department is acting independently here?
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
Well, it's based upon the findings of the grand jury, Kristen. So I think that that was the indictment that came. It was by a jury of his peers. This is not a new subject obviously. This is something that the Senate Judiciary Committee examined and lodged a active investigation into back in 2020. So I think these are just, this is the courts are going to have to decide this. These are allegations. They're not unserious allegations, and there are people in the past who have gone to jail for lying to Congress. So, I think the — I trust the judicial system and the justice system to figure this out. Obviously, they're going to have the final say in it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, I guess the question is about what we have heard from the president on this matter. And he has been going after former FBI Director James Comey for years. Take a listen to a little bit of what he said.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I fired James Comey, because he was a bad cop and he was a dirty cop. I think Comey is a disgrace to our country. I will tell you this, I had great honor to fire James Comey, a great, great honor. I just want people to act. If they're not guilty, that's fine. If they are guilty or if they should be charged, they should be charged. And we have to do it now.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Leader Thune, given all of that, is this a politically motivated prosecution?
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
Well, I think the important statement that he made, Kristen, was the last one. And that if he's guilty, he should be judged. If he's not guilty, he won't be. And again, I trust the justice system to sort that out. Obviously, these were serious enough allegations that the Senate Judiciary Committee back at the time launched an active investigation into the subject. But, again, I trust the justice system. There will be a process. He will have his day in court. And if he is innocent of the charges, then I'm sure that they will, they'll be thrown out.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, Mr. Leader, President Trump also said this week, quote, "I hope there are others," indicating he'd like to see opponents charged. And on Friday, Attorney General Pam Bondi said this. She said, quote, "This is just the beginning." Would you support the Justice Department bringing criminal charges against other political opponents of President Trump?
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
Obviously, a speculative and hypothetical question. I don't know the answer. I don't know what she's talking about, but there are serious enough allegations with Mr. Comey that a grand jury of 14 members, a jury of his peers, thought that it was worth pursuing. They're the ones who brought the indictment. So I think you have to let the process work, Kristen, let the justice system work. And he'll have his day in court. And if he is, in fact, innocent, I'm sure he'll be found that way.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But do you rule out that the president is pressuring the Justice Department based on those public comments?
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
You know, the president says a lot of things in public, and he has through the years. He's not a fan, as we all know, of James Comey. Neither is James Comey a fan of President Trump. He did something recently, “86 47” he wrote on the sand and then posted on social media. That doesn't seem like something that you would have an official of his stature or at least formerly of his stature doing either. But I think at the end of the day, it's about the justice system and them settling this one way or the other. The charges, as I said, it was a grand jury, and I have no idea where it goes from here, how solid the evidence is. I'm not a lawyer, but the courts will sort it out. And that's why we have a process in this country. And, as I said, there was a time certainly just a few years ago where people took this seriously enough that Chuck Grassley, who was the chairman of the Judiciary Committee at the time launched an active investigation into these allegations. So it's not a new thing. Yes, the president may not like James Comey, and James Comey may not like the president. But what in the end it's about, it's about the law and the facts, where they lead. And I trust the justice system to figure that out.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Let's talk about the big battle over government funding. We're just two days away, Leader, as you know, from a potential government shutdown. The president did cancel a planned meeting with Democratic leaders. The House doesn't plan to be in session until after the shutdown deadline. Is the government going to shut down this week, Leader Thune?
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
Totally up to the Democrats. The ball is in their court. There is a bill sitting at the desk in the Senate right now, we could pick it up today and pass it, that has been passed by the House that will be signed into law by the president to keep the government open. So this decision, in my judgment, at this point in time is up to a handful of Democrats. We need eight Democrats to pass it through the Senate, something that 13 times when the Democrats had the majority over the last four years and President Biden was in the White House Republicans helped Democrats do. Thirteen different times, we did continuing resolutions in the Democrat majority. And in every case, they passed. And what the Democrats have done here is take the federal government as a hostage, and for that matter, by extension, the American people, to try and get a whole laundry list of things that they want, the special interest groups on the far left are pushing them to accomplish. And using a seven-week funding resolution, which is designed to give us time to do the normal appropriations process. They are using this hostage trying to get all these other
things done. It's a very straightforward argument in my mind. It's simple.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to play something that Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said about the president canceling the meeting this week. Get your reaction on the other side. Take a look.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
He said he "doesn't need Democrats." Well, then he doesn't know how to count, because there are 60 votes in the Senate that you need to pass this and he's got 53.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Leader Thune, aren't you going to have to compromise with Democrats in order to get a deal and keep the government open?
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
Compromise on what, Kristen? This is a simple seven-week funding resolution to allow us to do a normal appropriations process, something that Democrat senators have said that they want to see done but something that Leader Schumer didn't do when they had the majority. They didn't do appropriation bills. This is new leadership. We're trying to do appropriation bills in the old-fashioned way, in an open, transparent way, where the Appropriations Committee writes the bills with Democrat and Republican input, reports them out to the floor where we have an open amendment process. This is simply about keeping that appropriations process going. I don't know what we're supposed to be negotiating. We did this 13 times when they had the majority, and in every circumstance, Republicans delivered the vote, so much so that the lowest vote count on all 13 of those was 65 Senators. This is a simple, straightforward deal to keep the government running so for the next seven weeks we have an opportunity to finish the appropriations process.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, Leader Thune —
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
They're trying to hijack it and load up all this liberal special interest stuff that they're working with these outside groups to do. It's politics. It is political posturing. They are afraid of their base, and they're trying to do something to get them motivated and not angry at them.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just so folks understand, here's what Democrats are arguing. They say that at the crux of this is the skyrocketing cost of healthcare and especially the expiring Obamacare tax credits, which could mean doubling or tripling of premiums should they expire, with some people losing financial assistance altogether. Do you think that those tax credits, those subsidies should expire, Leader Thune?
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
That doesn't happen until the end of the year. We can have that conversation. But before we do, release the hostage. Set the American people free. Keep the government open, and then let's have a conversation about those premium tax credits. I'm certainly open to that. I think we all are. I will say that that is an issue which is going to have to be, that particular program is desperately in need of reform. It's fraught with waste, fraud, and abuse. So we are going to have to have reforms if we take action there, but I think there is potentially a path forward. We have to see where it goes, but we can't do it while the American people are being held hostage by the Democrats in a government shutdown. Keep the government open. Let's fund the government, and then let's have the conversation about the premium tax credits. It's a fairly straightforward argument that we're making.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, Leader Thune, open enrollment starts in November, November 1st. You just said you are open to potentially negotiating over that. As you know, if they do expire, the number of uninsured people in your state of South Dakota would rise by about 20,000. So why not negotiate now and get this deal done for the people of your state?
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
Well, the deal is not ready to be done. The government is going to close on Tuesday night at midnight. Let's keep the government open. Let's go to work on that issue. And, yes, I mean, some of the notices are going to start going out. The program wouldn't end until the end of the year. And the program doesn't end. These were plus-ups that were done in response to COVID. These were enhancements. And it's a program, Kristen, as I said, that is fraught with waste, fraud, and abuse. There are so many people who don't even know they have coverage, because the payments are made directly to the insurance company. They auto-enroll people. They go out and sign them up so they can get paid. You have a lot of people who don't even know they have coverage, so more than half of the people that have insurance through this program never filed a claim last year.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
I mean, this is a program where they took the lids off. There's no income limits now, and you can make $600,000 a year and qualify for this. So it's a program in desperate need of reform. And we acknowledge that hopefully there'll be some steps taken that can address the concerns the Democrats have. But you can't do this by Tuesday, and you can't do it while you're holding the American people hostage with a government shutdown. So —
KRISTEN WELKER:
Leader Thune —
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
— let's keep the government open and then figure out where we go.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We have a lot more to get to. We're running out of time. The White House Budget Office released a memo telling agencies to prepare for mass firings if there's a shutdown. Do you support mass firings of federal employees if the government shuts down?
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
It doesn't have to happen. That's what I'm saying.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But do you support it?
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
They're playing with fire —
KRISTEN WELKER:
But would you support it?
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
— and they know it. They're playing with fire and they know it, Kristen. Keep the government open —
KRISTEN WELKER:
But do you support this threat by the president?
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
Chuck Schumer said a few months ago that "a government shutdown would be chaotic, harmful, and painful." He's right, and that's why we shouldn't do it. So, I mean, if you're worried about that, then let's keep the government open. It's a pretty straightforward, again, argument. I find this — I'm very comfortable with the position that we have. It's to fund the government, finish the appropriations process, deal with the issues the Democrats want to deal with after we keep the government open.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. I want to talk to you about the president's tariff policy. This week, he announced a slew of new tariffs, including 100% tariffs on pharmaceuticals, kitchen cabinets, heavy-duty trucks. This week, he acknowledged that farmers are hurting because of his tariff policy. He said he'd use some of the tariff revenue to actually help farmers who are being hurt right now. Take a listen to what President Trump had to say.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We're going to take some of that tariff money that we made, and we're going to give it to our farmers, who are for a little while going to be hurt until it kicks in, the tariffs kick in to their benefit. So we're going to make sure that our farmers are in great shape, because we're taking in a lot of money.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Why should American taxpayers bail out farmers who are hurting because of the president's tariff policy?
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
Well, look. I think that the farmers, and I represent a lot of them, and they want nothing more than open markets. There are markets right now that aren't open to some of our commodities. As a consequence of that, we've got a big harvest coming in here in South Dakota, corn, soybeans, and no place to go with it. So what the president has said is, “I'm going to support and I'm going to help our farmers.” And so we are looking at it. I'm a member of the Senate Ag Committee, have been for some time. And we're looking at potential solutions to make sure that we can help support farmers until some of those markets come back. I think part of it is that the president's trying to achieve, with his trade policy, reciprocity with countries that have been taking advantage of us for a long time. And I think most of us support that. I think a lot of our farmers support that. They are anxious. They want to see markets opened up. And so when I speak to the president and his team about this, I always reiterate the importance of keeping agriculture front and center when you're negotiating trade deals. But, at the end of the day, our farmers are probably going to need some financial assistance this year. And a lot of the revenue coming in off the tariffs is what they would use to provide that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, Leader Thune, why not ask the president to —
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
And that's —
KRISTEN WELKER:
— roll back, go ahead.
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
Well, I was going to say, and there's precedent for doing that. I mean, there are many times in the past where, now this is different because you got tariff revenue coming in, which you can use for that purpose. But this is not something that we haven't dealt with before.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Why not ask the president to roll back some of his tariffs instead of supporting a taxpayer funded bailout for farmers?
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
I think the big issue with the tariffs, Kristen, is China. And I don't expect China's going to do that just yet. Maybe they will. I'm hopeful that the administration, as a function of their trade policy, tariff policy, can get China back to the table, get them buying agricultural products. They certainly did that in the first Trump term. But I think at least for right now, that is one of the big markets. And the Chinese are buying from Argentina. They're buying from Brazil, paying much higher prices per bushel simply to punish the U.S. and our farmers. So, I mean, obviously, we've got a situation here. Hopefully, it is short-term in nature. If we have to do something to support farmers, the long-term best outcome and solution for America's farmers is open markets, and I'm hoping the administration will be successful in achieving that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, Leader Thune, let me ask you about some new news in a developing story, the president saying on Saturday he supports sending and he's going to send troops into Portland, Oregon. It's the latest city to see federal troops. Do you support the president using the U.S. military to police American cities?
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
Well, it depends on what he is using it for. If there are federal law enforcement officials that are threatened in some of these cities or federal assets or federal buildings, he has the authority to do that. My understanding is this is a request that came from the Department of Homeland Security, which suggests that they view the situation there as threatening to some of the officials who are working in that city. So, I mean, again, these are case by case. These are decisions that get made based upon what the threat environment is in some of these cities. But he certainly has the right to protect American and law enforcement officials in some of these cities if they're under threat.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Leader Thune, just big picture, there are more than 300 lawsuits in front of the courts right now accusing the president of overstepping presidential authority and attempting to override Congress from tariffs to immigration to the deployment of the National Guard. Is there anything that the president could do right now, any line that he could cross in terms of his executive authority that would prompt you to speak out against that policy?
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
Well, I think I do that a good amount, actually. Just look at this last week, Kristen. But I think the broader question here is, yeah. If the president in every administration, and I've been through multiple administrations now, Democrat and Republican, they're always going to assert as much authority as they can. That's the nature of the executive branch. And, yes, Congress as a co-equal, independent branch of the government has our job to do. And one of the levers we have is the power of the purse, which is funding. We also have the power of oversight and having hearings. But there are a lot of these issues that are going to get resolved by the courts, and that's where right now a lot of these things are being litigated. Some of the steps that he's taken, and frankly, on the tariff issue, these are authorities that Congress has given him in the past by statute and now they're being litigated in the courts. And so that's the system that we have. We will figure it out, but I can assure you, we're going to do our job, which is what we're trying to do by keeping the government funded and actually passing appropriations bills where we address some of the very issues that you're talking about.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senate Majority Leader John Thune, thank you so much for a robust conversation this morning. Really appreciate it. Great to see you.
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
Thanks, Kristen. Nice to see you.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, Senate Minority Leader Democrat Chuck Schumer of New York joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is Senate Minority Leader Democrat Chuck Schumer of New York. Leader Schumer, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Good morning. Glad you're in New York.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, we are thrilled to be in New York. Thank you so much for being here in person. We really appreciate it. I have to start off by talking about this big meeting at the White House on Monday. President Trump, all of the congressional leaders. How did it come about, and could this be a sign that you can get a deal done?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Well, first, how it came about, you know, we Democrats have been pushing for a meeting and a real negotiation, which they haven't done. They've just done their own bill. And so I called John Thune Friday afternoon and I said, "Come on. Let's sit down. The only way we're going to get this done is a serious negotiation. And we need the president as part of it, we need Speaker Johnson. Let the four leaders and the President sit down." And Saturday evening we got a call from the White House that they would do it Monday at 2 p.m. So we're delighted. It's a good first step, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You think you can keep the government open, or do you think you're headed for a shutdown?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Well, it depends on the Republicans, you know? The meeting is a first step, but only a first step. We need a serious negotiation. Now, if the president at this meeting is going to rant, and just yell at Democrats, and talk about all his alleged grievances, and say this, that, and the other thing, we won't get anything done. But my hope is it'll be a serious negotiation. You know, I saw Leader Thune say there were many serious negotiations — we didn't shut the government down when they were in the minority. You know why? Because I, as majority leader, sat down and negotiated with them. And we had to come to a compromise where neither side got everything it wanted. So if they're serious, I'm hopeful we can get something real done.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Speaking of Leader Thune, he just gave us a new statement about this meeting. Let me read it to you. You can respond. He says, "Rank-and-file Democrats are getting nervous, and Senator Schumer is too. The far left has painted them into an unsustainable corner, and they know it. Hopefully, Senator Schumer sees the light and listens to the same voice that walked him and his colleagues away from the edge of a shutdown in March. If a White House meeting helps him get there, I welcome the opportunity. Fundamentally, nothing has changed, though. And the choice remains the same. Democrats can either vote for a clean, short-term, nonpartisan CR that prioritizes the American people, or they can choose a completely avoidable shutdown that prioritizes politics above all else." Your reaction, and would you accept a deal, Leader Schumer, that doesn't include an extension of those Obamacare subsidies?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Well first, the bottom line is very simple, Kristen. It's up to them. If they come into the meeting to seriously negotiate — and the reason — we've been pushing for months. We've been resolute that we need a meeting, that we need a real negotiation. That you don't do this by one party putting together a completely partisan bill and saying, "Take it or leave it." So they felt the heat, the president at first said no. Remember, he first said yes for a meeting, then he said no for a meeting. He went on a rant against Democrats. But I think they felt the heat and they now want to sit down. But the fundamental question hasn't been answered yet, and we'll see on Monday. Are they serious about negotiating with us in a real way? We have two concerns. The first is health care. Our health care situation is in shambles, in good part because of what the Republicans did in the BBB, their so-called Big, Beautiful Bill, now they want to change the name of it because they know it's not very popular. I think 68% of Americans don't like it. And so it's a mess. We're representing the people. Everywhere I go and my colleagues go through the country — red, blue, purple — people are saying, "Oh my God, you got to change this." People are losing their jobs. Rural hospitals are closing. People are going to get notices of $4,000 a year increase in their premiums. So our job is to represent the people of America. So far they've stonewalled and said, "We're not discussing any of that." And we'll see if it changes on Tuesday.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Well, President Trump, as you know —
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
On Monday.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Well, President Trump, as you know, is threatening mass firings of federal workers. Thousands of them, he says. Back in March when you were talking to the Republicans, that was one of your big sticking points. You said, "I don't want to see federal workers fired." Here's what you told me back in March. Let's take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
They would keep the government shut down for six months, nine months, a year, till everyone was furloughed, and gone, and quit. And there would be no way to stop it. So I thought that would be so devastating to the republic, and anger so many people.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Leader Schumer, is the difference this time the immense pressure you are getting from your base to stand up to and fight President Trump?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Absolutely not. We're hearing from the American people that they need help on health care. And as for these massive layoffs, guess what? Simple, one-sentence answer: they're doing it anyway. There's no shutdown. They're laying off all these people. The budget they've proposed says another 300,000 federal workers should be laid off. They laid off 80,000 in the Veterans Administration. They're trying to intimidate the American people and us. But the bottom line is, if they fire all these people — first, the courts have brought a lot of them back because what they did was illegal. And second, there's such pressure on them not to do it because of the harm it causes people that they back off. Originally, they fired 80,000 from the Veterans Administration; now it's 30,000. That's still bad, but it shows you the heat is on them when they do this. And the American people won't like it at all.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You know, back in March you told me that you didn't have an off-ramp. What is your off-ramp this time if the government does shut down? Do you have one?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Yeah, look, God forbid the Republicans shut the government down. The American people will know it's on their back. First, they're in charge. They have the House, they have the Senate, they have the presidency, so they know they're in charge. Second, everyone knows that you need a bipartisan negotiation to get this done. The American people do. But third, there is going to be huge pressure on Republican senators, congressmen, and even Trump to do something about this horrible healthcare crisis. Closing of the rural hospitals, people's premiums going up $4,000 a year. A middle class family can't afford that. I saw a mother the other day who said, "My daughter has cancer. If these cuts go through, her treatment will end. I'm going to have to watch her suffer." That's happening all over America. So the heat will be on them if they do it. We hope they don't. We don't want a shutdown. We hope that they sit down and have a serious negotiation with us. That’s how it’s — I would remind Leader Thune, that's how we all did it in the past, a bipartisan negotiation. That's why the government didn't shut down while I was leader.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I have to turn to the other big news. We have been tracking the indictment of former FBI Director James Comey. He's accused of lying to the Senate back in 2020. You heard my conversation with Leader Thune. He notes the fact that he was indicted by a federal grand jury. He also says he wants to let the process play out. Do you trust, do you have faith in the judicial system?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
I have no faith in Donald Trump's judicial system. He has turned this judicial system to be his own political fighter, do what he wants politically. So that he tells them to go after people he doesn't like. He tells them to exonerate people that he likes. So many people are getting pardoned, and this and that. He has turned this Justice Department into his own political watchdog. It's horrible. No president has done this. This is what autocrats do. This is when Trump says he wants to be king to do it. And so when he says he doesn't like Comey, look what happened there, Kristen. The prosecutor who he appointed said, "There's not enough evidence to indict Comey." So he fired this prosecutor and put in someone who'd do whatever he wanted. This is one of the — Trump's done so many bad things to undermine our democracy, to undermine our norms. This is one of the very worst.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You're talking about executive authority, and I want to ask you broadly. We just learned, Leader Schumer, that President Trump is saying he now wants to send federal troops into Portland, Oregon. What is your reaction to that? Leader Thune defended it. What say you?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
It's indefensible. What we've always had in America is when there are problems, domestic problems in terms of safety, in terms of violence, it's the local police departments, the local sheriffs, the state sheriffs who handle the problem. What normal presidents would do would be say, "Oh, is there a problem here?” Call up the governor of the state, Oregon, and say, "How can we help you get this done?" What he's done instead, she told him she doesn't need him, the Governor of Oregon said, "We don't need you." And yet he comes in and brings in these troops. This is so against the American way. We do not have our military do local law enforcement. And he tried it in Los Angeles, it backfired on him. The people of Los Angeles got upset, and the lower court threw it out.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thirty seconds. Is there anything you can do to stop it in Congress?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Yes. First, we will fight it in the courts along with, you know, people who will file suits. But second, I would hope, Kristen, that some of our Republican colleagues seeing — I know they're loyal to Trump and does whatever he wants. But this is so far stepping over the line that I'd hope some of them would join us in legislation to prevent it from happening. We have such a proposal. I'm part of it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Well, we'll watch it very closely.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Leader Chuck Schumer, thank you so much for being here.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Kristen, great to be here with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Great to see you. We really appreciate it. When we come back, is President Trump using his power to punish his critics? The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here: David Remnick, editor ofThe New Yorker; former Secretary of Homeland Security, Jeh Johnson; and Peggy Noonan, columnist for the Wall Street Journal. Thanks to all of you for being here. David, I want to start with you. We obviously just talked to both of our guests about the indictment of former FBI Director, James Comey, and the fact that President Trump has said, "There will be others." Two very different responses from Leader Thune and Leader Schumer. Where do you see this going next?
DAVID REMNICK:
I think we should take the president at his word. It used to be, in 2016, in Trump 1.0 I guess, that it was considered the height of wisdom that the press takes Trump literally, and the people take him seriously, and then vice versa. I think it's possible to do both at the same time. The president is telling us that he has an enemies list that he's going to act on. He's told us who's on the enemies list; John Bolton, Letitia James, Fani Willis ought to be on her guard, and many more, whether they're in the press or civic society. I think this is a real emergency and it should be taken seriously. And know that he is going to act on it. It's not just blather out on the White House lawn. That's the difference between the first term and the second term. The first term was filled with impulses. And the second term is efficient, ruthless, and it's happening everyday. This movement toward authoritarianism is very distinct and needs to be taken seriously. This is not just a normal — you know, we talked about a budget battle and all that — that's normal politics. This is something extraordinary.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Secretary Johnson, pick up on that point. David is calling this extraordinary, a movement toward authoritarianism. You've seen the details that have been released so far of the case against former FBI Director James Comey, someone who you know, who you've worked with. Is there a case here? Is this going to go to trial? And do you see this as an inflection point as well?
SEC. JEH JOHNSON:
Jim Comey and I are friends. We were federal prosecutors together 35, 36 years ago, assistant U.S. attorneys here in Manhattan, hired by Rudy Giuliani. Jim has hired as his defense attorney Pat Fitzgerald, who was also an assistant U.S. attorney here in Manhattan 35, 36 years ago. He went on to be U.S. attorney in Chicago. Pat is a hard-charging lawyer. From a prosecution standpoint, there are lots of trouble signs here. Jim, I'm sure, is anxious to go to trial, anxious to tell his story. And he will tell it well. Before it even gets to trial, I suspect there will be a motion to dismiss for selective prosecution, for vindictive prosecution. Those are rarely granted. But this will be a very compelling case based on the president's own statements about how his Department of Justice should go after Jim Comey. And there are already trouble signs. First of all, the very seasoned U.S. attorney in that district overseeing this case resigned. And the grand jury. You know, we like to say that if a prosecutor asked, a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich. In this case, the grand jury hearing this case actually rejected one of the three charges on a very low standard, simply probable cause. The majority of the grand jurors have to vote that. That was rejected, which is highly, highly unusual. And so this case is flawed from the get-go, frankly.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Peggy, talk big picture, because President Trump campaigned on a promise of retribution. But he said, including in an interview with me, "My success will be my retribution." Is this what Republican voters wanted? And is this what they voted for?
PEGGY NOONAN:
Well, in terms of public reaction, I think when the first pictures of Jim Comey and the president started coming on the television and the websites a few days ago, and there's new action, and Comey indicted, I suspect a heck of a lot of people just looked and thought, "Oh, no. Not that again." There seems no real public purpose here, no real benefit to the public. This seems to be a case of revenge on one's enemies. Donald Trump feels that justice was made into lawfare and weaponization against him in the four years of his presidency, but also afterwards. He now wants to do the same, turn the same guns on the people who he feels tormented them. He wants them to feel it financially and emotionally. It makes Donald Trump look smaller. It makes the U.S. government look smaller. We should not be operating like this as a Justice Department with a president putting his thumb on the scales in this way, in this personal way that speaks of revenge and only revenge. I think it is a dreadful mistake, but I think it is very Donald Trump to do it. There will be more. And the second administration is different from the first administration in that in the first administration, they did care about public reaction to overstepping. They don't care now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and the other big difference is congressional oversight. This is part of what I asked Leader Schumer about. What if anything — he was clearly opposed to sending troops into Portland — what, if anything, can be done about it? He signaled that he is looking into what Congress can do. But do you anticipate that Congress can or will do anything in terms of oversight here, David?
DAVID REMNICK:
I think up until now, Congress has not proved itself to be a bulwark against this authoritarian drift. I think that's very clear. I mean, I think Senator Schumer acts in earnest, but it hasn't been effective overall in stanching this terrible bleeding. Look, we have an emergency here. I don't want to, you know, constantly be the guy that's acting as if his hair is on fire, but we have a moral emergency. When a president of the United States goes to a memorial service and rebukes the widow's call for mercy and forgiveness, an extraordinary gesture no matter what you think of Charlie Kirk and Erika Kirk's politics, and I have all kinds of problems with that, but that was an amazing gesture. And then, the president of the United States says, "No, I hate my opponents." That's a moral crisis. You have a crisis of competence when the next day he goes to a press conference and starts ranting and raving about Tylenol. Making parents of autistic kids panic and confused. And you have a political crisis in 16 different directions. And all of this is — has not been met — nobody's met the test in Congress fully.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, we will pause this part of our conversation. But please stick around. We have a lot more to get to with our panel. We also have a quick programming note. Former New York governor and New York City mayoral candidate Andrew Cuomo was set to appear on the show this morning. On Saturday, he canceled his appearance with us. We do hope to have him on in the near future. When we come back, Jimmy Kimmel returned to the air this week. We look at the role of comedy and politics. Our Meet the Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Jimmy Kimmel returned to late night this week, days after being pulled off the air in a move that sparked concerns about free speech. And with Stephen Colbert's show slated to end next year, a decision framed as financial but one that still raised eyebrows. It's a reminder of how comedians have long used their platforms to make political points. Back in 2012, Colbert was still playing a satirical cable news pundit on “The Colbert Report. “ And he joined Meet the Press to explain the role of comedy in politics.
[BEGIN TAPE]
STEPHEN COLBERT:
All satirists make points. Satire is parody with a — a point. That's — that’s all it is. We do 160 meow-meow shows a year, 161 shows a year. And you can't do that unless I guess you care a little bit about what you're talking about or I couldn't. Some people could, but I — I can't do that. And so I'm interested in the news. And so people often think that I'm an ideologue or that I have a political intent. I think that people — when Jon and I did the rally two years ago, they thought that had a political intent. But I — I comment on things that are in the news. I, A, do not imagine that I am a newsman. I really admire newsmen. I — I really enjoy good news. And I'm not a politician. But I — I like playing political games to see what really happens in them.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, are Democrats taking on President Trump with the right strategy? More with the panel next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is back with us. Secretary Johnson, everyone's going to meet on Monday at the White House to try to keep the government open. Do you think Democrats — who did work with Republicans back in March — do you think their strategy might work? Because Leader Schumer didn't seem to be backing down off of this healthcare demand.
SEC. JEH JOHNSON:
I think Democrats should negotiate with Republicans. I think Republicans should negotiate with Democrats. I think the president should negotiate with both to keep the government open. This is an apolitical answer from someone who has led a federal workforce of 230,000 people. A shutdown affects real people who are there to serve all of the rest of the American people. Ten years ago, Congress wanted to shut down the Department of Homeland Security over immigration. And my inspiration for fighting to keep our department open was a TSA employee in West Orange, New Jersey with stage four cancer who said to me, "Secretary Johnson, if the government shuts down, I don't get paid. I can't pay my co-pays." And so this — federal workers are treated like a political football in this fight too often, and we forget the impact it has on them who serve all the rest of us.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Peggy, pick up on that point. And how do you see this from a leadership perspective? Do you think — I mean, it seems to me part of the difference in this battle, quite frankly, the political backdrop is a bit different in that you have a Democratic base that's incredibly fired up, that's saying, "We're willing to suffer the political pain of a government shutdown." Whereas they may not have been as willing in March.
PEGGY NOONAN:
Oh, gosh. I still think of it as fringes of parties love things like shutdowns and arguments over them. I think this makes all leadership — the idea of a shutdown look worse, makes them look detached from the great middle of the American people who sometimes work in government, who work around government wherever. Nobody wants a shutdown. It hurts everybody. Nobody politically benefits. There is no plus side to this. You've already got your fringes. This is not the Democratic Party's problem in a way — “How do we handle the shutdown?” Time will pass. The shutdown will get resolved. Democratic Party has bigger problems about how it speaks to America.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and to that point, David Remnick, you just had a fascinating conversation with Ezra Klein about one of the former leaders of the Democratic Party, former President Barack Obama. To what extent should he be inserting himself? Ezra Klein says, "More." But there's a debate about that. Could he overstep? What is the takeaway, and do you think that former President Obama should be more engaged?
DAVID REMNICK:
I think the dilemma for Obama is that in normal times, presidents want to recede. They either want to do good works like Jimmy Carter or make money like many others. And Barack Obama has tried to thread the needle a little bit. That's his nature, threading the needle, a kind of liberal spirit in that sense. But these are not normal times. They're not even remotely normal times. And Barack Obama is still the most popular politician out there. And that’s — that comes with some responsibility. His dilemma is he doesn't want to suck the oxygen out of the air from any of its inheritors, whether they be Pete Buttigieg, or whoever it might be. And he wants — he wants to follow those old norms. I think though that these times, as I said earlier, are anything but normal. And the Democratic Party requires as much force, eloquence, discernment, and real politics as it can muster, even if that is a responsibility that goes to an ex-president who'd rather not.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Secretary Johnson, he was obviously your former boss. And there is this sense that there is a leadership vacuum right now in the Democratic Party. How do you see this?
SEC. JEH JOHNSON:
I think President Obama, and I suspect other former presidents, would say their party needs to look to the future, not the past, for leadership. Twenty years ago, we looked to Barack Obama for leadership as opposed to the past. And I believe that eventually the Democratic Party, speaking specifically of the Democratic Party, will — will do that and find leadership in the next election cycle, and the next presidential election cycle. History suggests that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So far, we haven't seen that though. We're starting to see some voices come forward, Peggy, but is there a leadership vacuum on the Democratic side that is fueling and, frankly, emboldening President Trump?
PEGGY NOONAN:
Oh, gosh, yes. It's kind of a ghost-ship without a captain. You know? It's really kind of a mess. I think they should get more serious. You know, when you speak privately to big Democrats, they sometimes wonder aloud, "Are we losing our republic?" They look at this White House. They see movements with regard to business, colleges, legal decisions, all this stuff. There's a sense of, "This balanced republic, are we receding from it or losing it?" That's the huge question. I see no Democrat seriously addressing it in a sober way, in a mature and responsible way. I see Democrats now — I consume a lot of media — it's all social media influencers getting loads of hits on TikTok. Guys, if the moment is as serious as you say, then be serious. That is what I'd say to the Democratic Party. And there is no question bigger than, are we losing our republic?
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, this is just a tremendous conversation. Thank you all so much for being a part of it. We really appreciate it. That is all for today. Thank you so much for watching. We will be back next week. Because, if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
KRISTEN WELKER:This Sunday: Shutdown battle. With government funding set to run out in just two days, the White House threatens mass firings of federal workers.SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:He’s not the king. He can’t just dictate what happens. He said he doesn’t need Democrats. Well, then he doesn’t know how to count.REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES: They’re not even pretending as if they want to find common ground.SEN. JOHN THUNE: What the Democrats have done here is take the federal government as a hostage.KRISTEN WELKER:Can a deal be reached? I’ll talk exclusively to the Senate Majority Leader, Republican John Thune of South Dakota, and the Senate Minority Leader, Democrat Chuck Schumer of New York. Plus: Facing charges. Former FBI Director James Comey is charged with lying to Congress and obstruction, just days after President Trump publicly called for the attorney general to prosecute him.PRES. DONALD TRUMP: Comey’s a sick person. I think he’s a sick guy actually. He did terrible things at the FBI.JAMES COMEY:I have great confidence in the federal judicial system. I’m innocent. So, let’s have a trial.KRISTEN WELKER:Joining me for insight and analysis are: David Remnick, editor of The New Yorker; Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan; and former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson. Welcome to Sunday; it’s a special edition of Meet the Press.ANNOUNCER:From NBC News headquarters in New York, the longest-running show in television history, this is a special edition of Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.KRISTEN WELKER:Good Sunday morning. With funding set to run out in two days, a deeply divided Washington is preparing for a government shutdown. But last night, President Trump agreed to a White House meeting with the top four congressional leaders, with Democrats demanding health insurance subsidies be extended as part of negotiations. Republicans need at least seven Democrats to support the short-term funding bill that already passed the House. This morning, there’s also growing scrutiny over whether President Trump is using the justice department to carry out political revenge. Former FBI Director James Comey was indicted on Thursday after a career prosecutor who refused to bring charges resigned amid pressure from Mr. Trump and was replaced by a former personal lawyer of his who has no experience as a prosecutor. The president suggested others will be next:[BEGIN TAPE] PRES. DONALD TRUMP: It's not a list, but I think there'll be others. I mean they're corrupt. These were corrupt radical left Democrats because Comey essentially was a Dem — he's worse than a Democrat. I would say the Democrats are better than Comey. But — no, there will be others. That's my opinion. They weaponized the Justice Department, like nobody in history. What they've done is terrible. And so I would, I hope — frankly, I hope there are others because you can't let this happen to a country.[END TAPE]On Saturday, I spoke with Senate Majority Leader John Thune before President Trump agreed to meet congressional leaders over the shutdown.[BEGIN TAPE] KRISTEN WELKER:Leader Thune, welcome back to Meet the Press.SEN. JOHN THUNE:Thank you, Kristen. Nice to be with you.KRISTEN WELKER:Thank you so much for being here on a big weekend. We are going to get to the funding battle on Capitol Hill in just a moment. But I do want to start with the indictment of former FBI Director James Comey, who is, as you know, an outspoken critic of President Trump. And it comes as the president publicly pushed his Attorney General Pam Bondi to prosecute Mr. Comey in a social media post last week. Let me ask you, Leader Thune, do you believe the Justice Department is acting independently here?SEN. JOHN THUNE:Well, it's based upon the findings of the grand jury, Kristen. So I think that that was the indictment that came. It was by a jury of his peers. This is not a new subject obviously. This is something that the Senate Judiciary Committee examined and lodged a active investigation into back in 2020. So I think these are just, this is the courts are going to have to decide this. These are allegations. They're not unserious allegations, and there are people in the past who have gone to jail for lying to Congress. So, I think the — I trust the judicial system and the justice system to figure this out. Obviously, they're going to have the final say in it.KRISTEN WELKER:Well, I guess the question is about what we have heard from the president on this matter. And he has been going after former FBI Director James Comey for years. Take a listen to a little bit of what he said.[BEGIN TAPE]PRES. DONALD TRUMP:I fired James Comey, because he was a bad cop and he was a dirty cop. I think Comey is a disgrace to our country. I will tell you this, I had great honor to fire James Comey, a great, great honor. I just want people to act. If they're not guilty, that's fine. If they are guilty or if they should be charged, they should be charged. And we have to do it now.[END TAPE]KRISTEN WELKER:Leader Thune, given all of that, is this a politically motivated prosecution?SEN. JOHN THUNE:Well, I think the important statement that he made, Kristen, was the last one. And that if he's guilty, he should be judged. If he's not guilty, he won't be. And again, I trust the justice system to sort that out. Obviously, these were serious enough allegations that the Senate Judiciary Committee back at the time launched an active investigation into the subject. But, again, I trust the justice system. There will be a process. He will have his day in court. And if he is innocent of the charges, then I'm sure that they will, they'll be thrown out.KRISTEN WELKER:But, Mr. Leader, President Trump also said this week, quote, "I hope there are others," indicating he'd like to see opponents charged. And on Friday, Attorney General Pam Bondi said this. She said, quote, "This is just the beginning." Would you support the Justice Department bringing criminal charges against other political opponents of President Trump?SEN. JOHN THUNE:Obviously, a speculative and hypothetical question. I don't know the answer. I don't know what she's talking about, but there are serious enough allegations with Mr. Comey that a grand jury of 14 members, a jury of his peers, thought that it was worth pursuing. They're the ones who brought the indictment. So I think you have to let the process work, Kristen, let the justice system work. And he'll have his day in court. And if he is, in fact, innocent, I'm sure he'll be found that way.KRISTEN WELKER:But do you rule out that the president is pressuring the Justice Department based on those public comments?SEN. JOHN THUNE:You know, the president says a lot of things in public, and he has through the years. He's not a fan, as we all know, of James Comey. Neither is James Comey a fan of President Trump. He did something recently, “86 47” he wrote on the sand and then posted on social media. That doesn't seem like something that you would have an official of his stature or at least formerly of his stature doing either. But I think at the end of the day, it's about the justice system and them settling this one way or the other. The charges, as I said, it was a grand jury, and I have no idea where it goes from here, how solid the evidence is. I'm not a lawyer, but the courts will sort it out. And that's why we have a process in this country. And, as I said, there was a time certainly just a few years ago where people took this seriously enough that Chuck Grassley, who was the chairman of the Judiciary Committee at the time launched an active investigation into these allegations. So it's not a new thing. Yes, the president may not like James Comey, and James Comey may not like the president. But what in the end it's about, it's about the law and the facts, where they lead. And I trust the justice system to figure that out.KRISTEN WELKER:All right. Let's talk about the big battle over government funding. We're just two days away, Leader, as you know, from a potential government shutdown. The president did cancel a planned meeting with Democratic leaders. The House doesn't plan to be in session until after the shutdown deadline. Is the government going to shut down this week, Leader Thune?SEN. JOHN THUNE:Totally up to the Democrats. The ball is in their court. There is a bill sitting at the desk in the Senate right now, we could pick it up today and pass it, that has been passed by the House that will be signed into law by the president to keep the government open. So this decision, in my judgment, at this point in time is up to a handful of Democrats. We need eight Democrats to pass it through the Senate, something that 13 times when the Democrats had the majority over the last four years and President Biden was in the White House Republicans helped Democrats do. Thirteen different times, we did continuing resolutions in the Democrat majority. And in every case, they passed. And what the Democrats have done here is take the federal government as a hostage, and for that matter, by extension, the American people, to try and get a whole laundry list of things that they want, the special interest groups on the far left are pushing them to accomplish. And using a seven-week funding resolution, which is designed to give us time to do the normal appropriations process. They are using this hostage trying to get all these other things done. It's a very straightforward argument in my mind. It's simple.KRISTEN WELKER:I want to play something that Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said about the president canceling the meeting this week. Get your reaction on the other side. Take a look.[BEGIN TAPE]SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:He said he "doesn't need Democrats." Well, then he doesn't know how to count, because there are 60 votes in the Senate that you need to pass this and he's got 53.[END TAPE]KRISTEN WELKER:Leader Thune, aren't you going to have to compromise with Democrats in order to get a deal and keep the government open?SEN. JOHN THUNE:Compromise on what, Kristen? This is a simple seven-week funding resolution to allow us to do a normal appropriations process, something that Democrat senators have said that they want to see done but something that Leader Schumer didn't do when they had the majority. They didn't do appropriation bills. This is new leadership. We're trying to do appropriation bills in the old-fashioned way, in an open, transparent way, where the Appropriations Committee writes the bills with Democrat and Republican input, reports them out to the floor where we have an open amendment process. This is simply about keeping that appropriations process going. I don't know what we're supposed to be negotiating. We did this 13 times when they had the majority, and in every circumstance, Republicans delivered the vote, so much so that the lowest vote count on all 13 of those was 65 Senators. This is a simple, straightforward deal to keep the government running so for the next seven weeks we have an opportunity to finish the appropriations process.KRISTEN WELKER:So, Leader Thune —SEN. JOHN THUNE:They're trying to hijack it and load up all this liberal special interest stuff that they're working with these outside groups to do. It's politics. It is political posturing. They are afraid of their base, and they're trying to do something to get them motivated and not angry at them.KRISTEN WELKER:Just so folks understand, here's what Democrats are arguing. They say that at the crux of this is the skyrocketing cost of healthcare and especially the expiring Obamacare tax credits, which could mean doubling or tripling of premiums should they expire, with some people losing financial assistance altogether. Do you think that those tax credits, those subsidies should expire, Leader Thune?SEN. JOHN THUNE:That doesn't happen until the end of the year. We can have that conversation. But before we do, release the hostage. Set the American people free. Keep the government open, and then let's have a conversation about those premium tax credits. I'm certainly open to that. I think we all are. I will say that that is an issue which is going to have to be, that particular program is desperately in need of reform. It's fraught with waste, fraud, and abuse. So we are going to have to have reforms if we take action there, but I think there is potentially a path forward. We have to see where it goes, but we can't do it while the American people are being held hostage by the Democrats in a government shutdown. Keep the government open. Let's fund the government, and then let's have the conversation about the premium tax credits. It's a fairly straightforward argument that we're making.KRISTEN WELKER:But, Leader Thune, open enrollment starts in November, November 1st. You just said you are open to potentially negotiating over that. As you know, if they do expire, the number of uninsured people in your state of South Dakota would rise by about 20,000. So why not negotiate now and get this deal done for the people of your state?SEN. JOHN THUNE:Well, the deal is not ready to be done. The government is going to close on Tuesday night at midnight. Let's keep the government open. Let's go to work on that issue. And, yes, I mean, some of the notices are going to start going out. The program wouldn't end until the end of the year. And the program doesn't end. These were plus-ups that were done in response to COVID. These were enhancements. And it's a program, Kristen, as I said, that is fraught with waste, fraud, and abuse. There are so many people who don't even know they have coverage, because the payments are made directly to the insurance company. They auto-enroll people. They go out and sign them up so they can get paid. You have a lot of people who don't even know they have coverage, so more than half of the people that have insurance through this program never filed a claim last year.KRISTEN WELKER:Yeah.SEN. JOHN THUNE:I mean, this is a program where they took the lids off. There's no income limits now, and you can make $600,000 a year and qualify for this. So it's a program in desperate need of reform. And we acknowledge that hopefully there'll be some steps taken that can address the concerns the Democrats have. But you can't do this by Tuesday, and you can't do it while you're holding the American people hostage with a government shutdown. So —KRISTEN WELKER:Leader Thune —SEN. JOHN THUNE:— let's keep the government open and then figure out where we go.KRISTEN WELKER:We have a lot more to get to. We're running out of time. The White House Budget Office released a memo telling agencies to prepare for mass firings if there's a shutdown. Do you support mass firings of federal employees if the government shuts down?SEN. JOHN THUNE:It doesn't have to happen. That's what I'm saying.KRISTEN WELKER:But do you support it?SEN. JOHN THUNE:They're playing with fire —KRISTEN WELKER:But would you support it?SEN. JOHN THUNE:— and they know it. They're playing with fire and they know it, Kristen. Keep the government open —KRISTEN WELKER:But do you support this threat by the president?SEN. JOHN THUNE:Chuck Schumer said a few months ago that "a government shutdown would be chaotic, harmful, and painful." He's right, and that's why we shouldn't do it. So, I mean, if you're worried about that, then let's keep the government open. It's a pretty straightforward, again, argument. I find this — I'm very comfortable with the position that we have. It's to fund the government, finish the appropriations process, deal with the issues the Democrats want to deal with after we keep the government open.KRISTEN WELKER:Okay. I want to talk to you about the president's tariff policy. This week, he announced a slew of new tariffs, including 100% tariffs on pharmaceuticals, kitchen cabinets, heavy-duty trucks. This week, he acknowledged that farmers are hurting because of his tariff policy. He said he'd use some of the tariff revenue to actually help farmers who are being hurt right now. Take a listen to what President Trump had to say.[BEGIN TAPE]PRES. DONALD TRUMP:We're going to take some of that tariff money that we made, and we're going to give it to our farmers, who are for a little while going to be hurt until it kicks in, the tariffs kick in to their benefit. So we're going to make sure that our farmers are in great shape, because we're taking in a lot of money.[END TAPE]KRISTEN WELKER:Why should American taxpayers bail out farmers who are hurting because of the president's tariff policy?SEN. JOHN THUNE:Well, look. I think that the farmers, and I represent a lot of them, and they want nothing more than open markets. There are markets right now that aren't open to some of our commodities. As a consequence of that, we've got a big harvest coming in here in South Dakota, corn, soybeans, and no place to go with it. So what the president has said is, “I'm going to support and I'm going to help our farmers.” And so we are looking at it. I'm a member of the Senate Ag Committee, have been for some time. And we're looking at potential solutions to make sure that we can help support farmers until some of those markets come back. I think part of it is that the president's trying to achieve, with his trade policy, reciprocity with countries that have been taking advantage of us for a long time. And I think most of us support that. I think a lot of our farmers support that. They are anxious. They want to see markets opened up. And so when I speak to the president and his team about this, I always reiterate the importance of keeping agriculture front and center when you're negotiating trade deals. But, at the end of the day, our farmers are probably going to need some financial assistance this year. And a lot of the revenue coming in off the tariffs is what they would use to provide that.KRISTEN WELKER:But, Leader Thune, why not ask the president to —SEN. JOHN THUNE:And that's —KRISTEN WELKER:— roll back, go ahead.SEN. JOHN THUNE:Well, I was going to say, and there's precedent for doing that. I mean, there are many times in the past where, now this is different because you got tariff revenue coming in, which you can use for that purpose. But this is not something that we haven't dealt with before.KRISTEN WELKER:Why not ask the president to roll back some of his tariffs instead of supporting a taxpayer funded bailout for farmers?SEN. JOHN THUNE:I think the big issue with the tariffs, Kristen, is China. And I don't expect China's going to do that just yet. Maybe they will. I'm hopeful that the administration, as a function of their trade policy, tariff policy, can get China back to the table, get them buying agricultural products. They certainly did that in the first Trump term. But I think at least for right now, that is one of the big markets. And the Chinese are buying from Argentina. They're buying from Brazil, paying much higher prices per bushel simply to punish the U.S. and our farmers. So, I mean, obviously, we've got a situation here. Hopefully, it is short-term in nature. If we have to do something to support farmers, the long-term best outcome and solution for America's farmers is open markets, and I'm hoping the administration will be successful in achieving that.KRISTEN WELKER:So, Leader Thune, let me ask you about some new news in a developing story, the president saying on Saturday he supports sending and he's going to send troops into Portland, Oregon. It's the latest city to see federal troops. Do you support the president using the U.S. military to police American cities?SEN. JOHN THUNE:Well, it depends on what he is using it for. If there are federal law enforcement officials that are threatened in some of these cities or federal assets or federal buildings, he has the authority to do that. My understanding is this is a request that came from the Department of Homeland Security, which suggests that they view the situation there as threatening to some of the officials who are working in that city. So, I mean, again, these are case by case. These are decisions that get made based upon what the threat environment is in some of these cities. But he certainly has the right to protect American and law enforcement officials in some of these cities if they're under threat.KRISTEN WELKER:Leader Thune, just big picture, there are more than 300 lawsuits in front of the courts right now accusing the president of overstepping presidential authority and attempting to override Congress from tariffs to immigration to the deployment of the National Guard. Is there anything that the president could do right now, any line that he could cross in terms of his executive authority that would prompt you to speak out against that policy?SEN. JOHN THUNE:Well, I think I do that a good amount, actually. Just look at this last week, Kristen. But I think the broader question here is, yeah. If the president in every administration, and I've been through multiple administrations now, Democrat and Republican, they're always going to assert as much authority as they can. That's the nature of the executive branch. And, yes, Congress as a co-equal, independent branch of the government has our job to do. And one of the levers we have is the power of the purse, which is funding. We also have the power of oversight and having hearings. But there are a lot of these issues that are going to get resolved by the courts, and that's where right now a lot of these things are being litigated. Some of the steps that he's taken, and frankly, on the tariff issue, these are authorities that Congress has given him in the past by statute and now they're being litigated in the courts. And so that's the system that we have. We will figure it out, but I can assure you, we're going to do our job, which is what we're trying to do by keeping the government funded and actually passing appropriations bills where we address some of the very issues that you're talking about.KRISTEN WELKER:All right. Senate Majority Leader John Thune, thank you so much for a robust conversation this morning. Really appreciate it. Great to see you.SEN. JOHN THUNE:Thanks, Kristen. Nice to see you.[END TAPE]KRISTEN WELKER: When we come back, Senate Minority Leader Democrat Chuck Schumer of New York joins me next. KRISTEN WELKER:And joining me now is Senate Minority Leader Democrat Chuck Schumer of New York. Leader Schumer, welcome back to Meet the Press.SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:Good morning. Glad you're in New York.KRISTEN WELKER:Well, we are thrilled to be in New York. Thank you so much for being here in person. We really appreciate it. I have to start off by talking about this big meeting at the White House on Monday. President Trump, all of the congressional leaders. How did it come about, and could this be a sign that you can get a deal done?SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:Well, first, how it came about, you know, we Democrats have been pushing for a meeting and a real negotiation, which they haven't done. They've just done their own bill. And so I called John Thune Friday afternoon and I said, "Come on. Let's sit down. The only way we're going to get this done is a serious negotiation. And we need the president as part of it, we need Speaker Johnson. Let the four leaders and the President sit down." And Saturday evening we got a call from the White House that they would do it Monday at 2 p.m. So we're delighted. It's a good first step, Kristen.KRISTEN WELKER:You think you can keep the government open, or do you think you're headed for a shutdown?SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:Well, it depends on the Republicans, you know? The meeting is a first step, but only a first step. We need a serious negotiation. Now, if the president at this meeting is going to rant, and just yell at Democrats, and talk about all his alleged grievances, and say this, that, and the other thing, we won't get anything done. But my hope is it'll be a serious negotiation. You know, I saw Leader Thune say there were many serious negotiations — we didn't shut the government down when they were in the minority. You know why? Because I, as majority leader, sat down and negotiated with them. And we had to come to a compromise where neither side got everything it wanted. So if they're serious, I'm hopeful we can get something real done.KRISTEN WELKER:Speaking of Leader Thune, he just gave us a new statement about this meeting. Let me read it to you. You can respond. He says, "Rank-and-file Democrats are getting nervous, and Senator Schumer is too. The far left has painted them into an unsustainable corner, and they know it. Hopefully, Senator Schumer sees the light and listens to the same voice that walked him and his colleagues away from the edge of a shutdown in March. If a White House meeting helps him get there, I welcome the opportunity. Fundamentally, nothing has changed, though. And the choice remains the same. Democrats can either vote for a clean, short-term, nonpartisan CR that prioritizes the American people, or they can choose a completely avoidable shutdown that prioritizes politics above all else." Your reaction, and would you accept a deal, Leader Schumer, that doesn't include an extension of those Obamacare subsidies?SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:Well first, the bottom line is very simple, Kristen. It's up to them. If they come into the meeting to seriously negotiate — and the reason — we've been pushing for months. We've been resolute that we need a meeting, that we need a real negotiation. That you don't do this by one party putting together a completely partisan bill and saying, "Take it or leave it." So they felt the heat, the president at first said no. Remember, he first said yes for a meeting, then he said no for a meeting. He went on a rant against Democrats. But I think they felt the heat and they now want to sit down. But the fundamental question hasn't been answered yet, and we'll see on Monday. Are they serious about negotiating with us in a real way? We have two concerns. The first is health care. Our health care situation is in shambles, in good part because of what the Republicans did in the BBB, their so-called Big, Beautiful Bill, now they want to change the name of it because they know it's not very popular. I think 68% of Americans don't like it. And so it's a mess. We're representing the people. Everywhere I go and my colleagues go through the country — red, blue, purple — people are saying, "Oh my God, you got to change this." People are losing their jobs. Rural hospitals are closing. People are going to get notices of $4,000 a year increase in their premiums. So our job is to represent the people of America. So far they've stonewalled and said, "We're not discussing any of that." And we'll see if it changes on Tuesday.KRISTEN WELKER:Okay. Well, President Trump, as you know —SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:On Monday.KRISTEN WELKER:Yeah. Well, President Trump, as you know, is threatening mass firings of federal workers. Thousands of them, he says. Back in March when you were talking to the Republicans, that was one of your big sticking points. You said, "I don't want to see federal workers fired." Here's what you told me back in March. Let's take a listen.[BEGIN TAPE]SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:They would keep the government shut down for six months, nine months, a year, till everyone was furloughed, and gone, and quit. And there would be no way to stop it. So I thought that would be so devastating to the republic, and anger so many people.[END TAPE]KRISTEN WELKER:Leader Schumer, is the difference this time the immense pressure you are getting from your base to stand up to and fight President Trump?SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:Absolutely not. We're hearing from the American people that they need help on health care. And as for these massive layoffs, guess what? Simple, one-sentence answer: they're doing it anyway. There's no shutdown. They're laying off all these people. The budget they've proposed says another 300,000 federal workers should be laid off. They laid off 80,000 in the Veterans Administration. They're trying to intimidate the American people and us. But the bottom line is, if they fire all these people — first, the courts have brought a lot of them back because what they did was illegal. And second, there's such pressure on them not to do it because of the harm it causes people that they back off. Originally, they fired 80,000 from the Veterans Administration; now it's 30,000. That's still bad, but it shows you the heat is on them when they do this. And the American people won't like it at all.KRISTEN WELKER:You know, back in March you told me that you didn't have an off-ramp. What is your off-ramp this time if the government does shut down? Do you have one?SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:Yeah, look, God forbid the Republicans shut the government down. The American people will know it's on their back. First, they're in charge. They have the House, they have the Senate, they have the presidency, so they know they're in charge. Second, everyone knows that you need a bipartisan negotiation to get this done. The American people do. But third, there is going to be huge pressure on Republican senators, congressmen, and even Trump to do something about this horrible healthcare crisis. Closing of the rural hospitals, people's premiums going up $4,000 a year. A middle class family can't afford that. I saw a mother the other day who said, "My daughter has cancer. If these cuts go through, her treatment will end. I'm going to have to watch her suffer." That's happening all over America. So the heat will be on them if they do it. We hope they don't. We don't want a shutdown. We hope that they sit down and have a serious negotiation with us. That’s how it’s — I would remind Leader Thune, that's how we all did it in the past, a bipartisan negotiation. That's why the government didn't shut down while I was leader.KRISTEN WELKER:I have to turn to the other big news. We have been tracking the indictment of former FBI Director James Comey. He's accused of lying to the Senate back in 2020. You heard my conversation with Leader Thune. He notes the fact that he was indicted by a federal grand jury. He also says he wants to let the process play out. Do you trust, do you have faith in the judicial system?SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:I have no faith in Donald Trump's judicial system. He has turned this judicial system to be his own political fighter, do what he wants politically. So that he tells them to go after people he doesn't like. He tells them to exonerate people that he likes. So many people are getting pardoned, and this and that. He has turned this Justice Department into his own political watchdog. It's horrible. No president has done this. This is what autocrats do. This is when Trump says he wants to be king to do it. And so when he says he doesn't like Comey, look what happened there, Kristen. The prosecutor who he appointed said, "There's not enough evidence to indict Comey." So he fired this prosecutor and put in someone who'd do whatever he wanted. This is one of the — Trump's done so many bad things to undermine our democracy, to undermine our norms. This is one of the very worst.KRISTEN WELKER:You're talking about executive authority, and I want to ask you broadly. We just learned, Leader Schumer, that President Trump is saying he now wants to send federal troops into Portland, Oregon. What is your reaction to that? Leader Thune defended it. What say you?SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:It's indefensible. What we've always had in America is when there are problems, domestic problems in terms of safety, in terms of violence, it's the local police departments, the local sheriffs, the state sheriffs who handle the problem. What normal presidents would do would be say, "Oh, is there a problem here?” Call up the governor of the state, Oregon, and say, "How can we help you get this done?" What he's done instead, she told him she doesn't need him, the Governor of Oregon said, "We don't need you." And yet he comes in and brings in these troops. This is so against the American way. We do not have our military do local law enforcement. And he tried it in Los Angeles, it backfired on him. The people of Los Angeles got upset, and the lower court threw it out.KRISTEN WELKER:Thirty seconds. Is there anything you can do to stop it in Congress?SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:Yes. First, we will fight it in the courts along with, you know, people who will file suits. But second, I would hope, Kristen, that some of our Republican colleagues seeing — I know they're loyal to Trump and does whatever he wants. But this is so far stepping over the line that I'd hope some of them would join us in legislation to prevent it from happening. We have such a proposal. I'm part of it.KRISTEN WELKER:Okay. Well, we'll watch it very closely.SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:Thank you.KRISTEN WELKER:Leader Chuck Schumer, thank you so much for being here.SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:Kristen, great to be here with you.KRISTEN WELKER:Great to see you. We really appreciate it. When we come back, is President Trump using his power to punish his critics? The panel is next.KRISTEN WELKER:Welcome back. The panel is here: David Remnick, editor of The New Yorker; former Secretary of Homeland Security, Jeh Johnson; and Peggy Noonan, columnist for the Wall Street Journal. Thanks to all of you for being here. David, I want to start with you. We obviously just talked to both of our guests about the indictment of former FBI Director, James Comey, and the fact that President Trump has said, "There will be others." Two very different responses from Leader Thune and Leader Schumer. Where do you see this going next?DAVID REMNICK:I think we should take the president at his word. It used to be, in 2016, in Trump 1.0 I guess, that it was considered the height of wisdom that the press takes Trump literally, and the people take him seriously, and then vice versa. I think it's possible to do both at the same time. The president is telling us that he has an enemies list that he's going to act on. He's told us who's on the enemies list; John Bolton, Letitia James, Fani Willis ought to be on her guard, and many more, whether they're in the press or civic society. I think this is a real emergency and it should be taken seriously. And know that he is going to act on it. It's not just blather out on the White House lawn. That's the difference between the first term and the second term. The first term was filled with impulses. And the second term is efficient, ruthless, and it's happening everyday. This movement toward authoritarianism is very distinct and needs to be taken seriously. This is not just a normal — you know, we talked about a budget battle and all that — that's normal politics. This is something extraordinary.KRISTEN WELKER:Secretary Johnson, pick up on that point. David is calling this extraordinary, a movement toward authoritarianism. You've seen the details that have been released so far of the case against former FBI Director James Comey, someone who you know, who you've worked with. Is there a case here? Is this going to go to trial? And do you see this as an inflection point as well?SEC. JEH JOHNSON:Jim Comey and I are friends. We were federal prosecutors together 35, 36 years ago, assistant U.S. attorneys here in Manhattan, hired by Rudy Giuliani. Jim has hired as his defense attorney Pat Fitzgerald, who was also an assistant U.S. attorney here in Manhattan 35, 36 years ago. He went on to be U.S. attorney in Chicago. Pat is a hard-charging lawyer. From a prosecution standpoint, there are lots of trouble signs here. Jim, I'm sure, is anxious to go to trial, anxious to tell his story. And he will tell it well. Before it even gets to trial, I suspect there will be a motion to dismiss for selective prosecution, for vindictive prosecution. Those are rarely granted. But this will be a very compelling case based on the president's own statements about how his Department of Justice should go after Jim Comey. And there are already trouble signs. First of all, the very seasoned U.S. attorney in that district overseeing this case resigned. And the grand jury. You know, we like to say that if a prosecutor asked, a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich. In this case, the grand jury hearing this case actually rejected one of the three charges on a very low standard, simply probable cause. The majority of the grand jurors have to vote that. That was rejected, which is highly, highly unusual. And so this case is flawed from the get-go, frankly.KRISTEN WELKER:Peggy, talk big picture, because President Trump campaigned on a promise of retribution. But he said, including in an interview with me, "My success will be my retribution." Is this what Republican voters wanted? And is this what they voted for?PEGGY NOONAN:Well, in terms of public reaction, I think when the first pictures of Jim Comey and the president started coming on the television and the websites a few days ago, and there's new action, and Comey indicted, I suspect a heck of a lot of people just looked and thought, "Oh, no. Not that again." There seems no real public purpose here, no real benefit to the public. This seems to be a case of revenge on one's enemies. Donald Trump feels that justice was made into lawfare and weaponization against him in the four years of his presidency, but also afterwards. He now wants to do the same, turn the same guns on the people who he feels tormented them. He wants them to feel it financially and emotionally. It makes Donald Trump look smaller. It makes the U.S. government look smaller. We should not be operating like this as a Justice Department with a president putting his thumb on the scales in this way, in this personal way that speaks of revenge and only revenge. I think it is a dreadful mistake, but I think it is very Donald Trump to do it. There will be more. And the second administration is different from the first administration in that in the first administration, they did care about public reaction to overstepping. They don't care now.KRISTEN WELKER:Well, and the other big difference is congressional oversight. This is part of what I asked Leader Schumer about. What if anything — he was clearly opposed to sending troops into Portland — what, if anything, can be done about it? He signaled that he is looking into what Congress can do. But do you anticipate that Congress can or will do anything in terms of oversight here, David?DAVID REMNICK:I think up until now, Congress has not proved itself to be a bulwark against this authoritarian drift. I think that's very clear. I mean, I think Senator Schumer acts in earnest, but it hasn't been effective overall in stanching this terrible bleeding. Look, we have an emergency here. I don't want to, you know, constantly be the guy that's acting as if his hair is on fire, but we have a moral emergency. When a president of the United States goes to a memorial service and rebukes the widow's call for mercy and forgiveness, an extraordinary gesture no matter what you think of Charlie Kirk and Erika Kirk's politics, and I have all kinds of problems with that, but that was an amazing gesture. And then, the president of the United States says, "No, I hate my opponents." That's a moral crisis. You have a crisis of competence when the next day he goes to a press conference and starts ranting and raving about Tylenol. Making parents of autistic kids panic and confused. And you have a political crisis in 16 different directions. And all of this is — has not been met — nobody's met the test in Congress fully.KRISTEN WELKER:All right. Well, we will pause this part of our conversation. But please stick around. We have a lot more to get to with our panel. We also have a quick programming note. Former New York governor and New York City mayoral candidate Andrew Cuomo was set to appear on the show this morning. On Saturday, he canceled his appearance with us. We do hope to have him on in the near future. When we come back, Jimmy Kimmel returned to the air this week. We look at the role of comedy and politics. Our Meet the Press Minute is next.KRISTEN WELKER:Welcome back. Jimmy Kimmel returned to late night this week, days after being pulled off the air in a move that sparked concerns about free speech. And with Stephen Colbert's show slated to end next year, a decision framed as financial but one that still raised eyebrows. It's a reminder of how comedians have long used their platforms to make political points. Back in 2012, Colbert was still playing a satirical cable news pundit on “The Colbert Report. “ And he joined Meet the Press to explain the role of comedy in politics.[BEGIN TAPE] STEPHEN COLBERT:All satirists make points. Satire is parody with a — a point. That's — that’s all it is. We do 160 meow-meow shows a year, 161 shows a year. And you can't do that unless I guess you care a little bit about what you're talking about or I couldn't. Some people could, but I — I can't do that. And so I'm interested in the news. And so people often think that I'm an ideologue or that I have a political intent. I think that people — when Jon and I did the rally two years ago, they thought that had a political intent. But I — I comment on things that are in the news. I, A, do not imagine that I am a newsman. I really admire newsmen. I — I really enjoy good news. And I'm not a politician. But I — I like playing political games to see what really happens in them.[END TAPE]KRISTEN WELKER:When we come back, are Democrats taking on President Trump with the right strategy? More with the panel next.KRISTEN WELKER:Welcome back. The panel is back with us. Secretary Johnson, everyone's going to meet on Monday at the White House to try to keep the government open. Do you think Democrats — who did work with Republicans back in March — do you think their strategy might work? Because Leader Schumer didn't seem to be backing down off of this healthcare demand.SEC. JEH JOHNSON:I think Democrats should negotiate with Republicans. I think Republicans should negotiate with Democrats. I think the president should negotiate with both to keep the government open. This is an apolitical answer from someone who has led a federal workforce of 230,000 people. A shutdown affects real people who are there to serve all of the rest of the American people. Ten years ago, Congress wanted to shut down the Department of Homeland Security over immigration. And my inspiration for fighting to keep our department open was a TSA employee in West Orange, New Jersey with stage four cancer who said to me, "Secretary Johnson, if the government shuts down, I don't get paid. I can't pay my co-pays." And so this — federal workers are treated like a political football in this fight too often, and we forget the impact it has on them who serve all the rest of us.KRISTEN WELKER:Peggy, pick up on that point. And how do you see this from a leadership perspective? Do you think — I mean, it seems to me part of the difference in this battle, quite frankly, the political backdrop is a bit different in that you have a Democratic base that's incredibly fired up, that's saying, "We're willing to suffer the political pain of a government shutdown." Whereas they may not have been as willing in March.PEGGY NOONAN:Oh, gosh. I still think of it as fringes of parties love things like shutdowns and arguments over them. I think this makes all leadership — the idea of a shutdown look worse, makes them look detached from the great middle of the American people who sometimes work in government, who work around government wherever. Nobody wants a shutdown. It hurts everybody. Nobody politically benefits. There is no plus side to this. You've already got your fringes. This is not the Democratic Party's problem in a way — “How do we handle the shutdown?” Time will pass. The shutdown will get resolved. Democratic Party has bigger problems about how it speaks to America.KRISTEN WELKER:Well, and to that point, David Remnick, you just had a fascinating conversation with Ezra Klein about one of the former leaders of the Democratic Party, former President Barack Obama. To what extent should he be inserting himself? Ezra Klein says, "More." But there's a debate about that. Could he overstep? What is the takeaway, and do you think that former President Obama should be more engaged?DAVID REMNICK:I think the dilemma for Obama is that in normal times, presidents want to recede. They either want to do good works like Jimmy Carter or make money like many others. And Barack Obama has tried to thread the needle a little bit. That's his nature, threading the needle, a kind of liberal spirit in that sense. But these are not normal times. They're not even remotely normal times. And Barack Obama is still the most popular politician out there. And that’s — that comes with some responsibility. His dilemma is he doesn't want to suck the oxygen out of the air from any of its inheritors, whether they be Pete Buttigieg, or whoever it might be. And he wants — he wants to follow those old norms. I think though that these times, as I said earlier, are anything but normal. And the Democratic Party requires as much force, eloquence, discernment, and real politics as it can muster, even if that is a responsibility that goes to an ex-president who'd rather not.KRISTEN WELKER:Secretary Johnson, he was obviously your former boss. And there is this sense that there is a leadership vacuum right now in the Democratic Party. How do you see this?SEC. JEH JOHNSON:I think President Obama, and I suspect other former presidents, would say their party needs to look to the future, not the past, for leadership. Twenty years ago, we looked to Barack Obama for leadership as opposed to the past. And I believe that eventually the Democratic Party, speaking specifically of the Democratic Party, will — will do that and find leadership in the next election cycle, and the next presidential election cycle. History suggests that.KRISTEN WELKER:So far, we haven't seen that though. We're starting to see some voices come forward, Peggy, but is there a leadership vacuum on the Democratic side that is fueling and, frankly, emboldening President Trump?PEGGY NOONAN:Oh, gosh, yes. It's kind of a ghost-ship without a captain. You know? It's really kind of a mess. I think they should get more serious. You know, when you speak privately to big Democrats, they sometimes wonder aloud, "Are we losing our republic?" They look at this White House. They see movements with regard to business, colleges, legal decisions, all this stuff. There's a sense of, "This balanced republic, are we receding from it or losing it?" That's the huge question. I see no Democrat seriously addressing it in a sober way, in a mature and responsible way. I see Democrats now — I consume a lot of media — it's all social media influencers getting loads of hits on TikTok. Guys, if the moment is as serious as you say, then be serious. That is what I'd say to the Democratic Party. And there is no question bigger than, are we losing our republic?KRISTEN WELKER:All right. Well, this is just a tremendous conversation. Thank you all so much for being a part of it. We really appreciate it. That is all for today. Thank you so much for watching. We will be back next week. Because, if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
