KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: outrage. In the wake of the assassination of conservative activist Charlie Kirk, the Trump administration vows to crackdown on the so-called “radical left.”
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
The radical left has done tremendous damage to this country.
ATTORNEY GENERAL PAM BONDI:
We will absolutely target you, go after you, if you are targeting anyone with hate speech.
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
The answer to debate and speech that you don't like is not violence or taking someone's life. It's more speech. It's more debate. It's more engagement.
KRISTEN WELKER;
I'll talk exclusively to Democratic Governor Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania and Republican Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky. Plus: off air. ABC pulls Jimmy Kjmmel off the air after facing pressure from the FCC chairman.
BRENDAN CARR:
We can do this the easy way or the hard way.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
When somebody is given – 97% of the stories are bad about a person, that's no longer free speech, that’s no longer – that's just cheating.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How far will the administration go to target political opponents and silent dissent? And: let them. Bestselling author and podcast host Mel Robbins joins me for a “Meet the Moment” conversation.
MEL ROBBINS:
You don't change other people by trying to change them. You change other people and the world around you by changing yourself.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me for insight and analysis are: Amna Nawaz, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour; New York Times White House correspondent Tyler Pager; Adrienne Elrod, former senior adviser to the Harris campaign; and Republican strategist Brendan Buck. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. As we come on the air, thousands are gathering in Arizona to pay tribute to conservative activist Charlie Kirk, just over a week after he was assassinated. President Trump is among those set to speak at the memorial service. It comes as the country is grappling not only with political violence, but also threats to free speech. ABC indefinitely suspended late night comedian Jimmy Kimmel for comments he made in the wake of Kirk’s death. President Trump warning the FCC could now target broadcasters which critique him. On Friday, I sat down with Pennsylvania's Democratic Governor Josh Shapiro, who is a victim of political violence himself. Earlier this year, an arsonist firebombed the governor’s mansion in Harrisburg, while he and his family were sleeping. I asked the governor what he makes of this moment we’re living in.
[BEGIN TAPE]
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
I think we're at an inflection point as a nation. And I think we can go in a number of different ways. I hope we go the direction of healing, of bringing people together, of trying to find our commonalities, not just focus on our differences. You referenced the firebombing and the attempted murder on my life and our family in April at the Governor's Residence in Harrisburg. We could've very easily at that moment as a commonwealth slipped into a dark place. Instead, what I saw was a whole lot of light, a whole lot of people from all different walks of life, all different faiths, all different backgrounds, all different parties coming together to not just support me and my family, but to support our commonwealth. This attack on us was an attack on the entire commonwealth of Pennsylvania. I saw the better angels of the good people of Pennsylvania. I want to see that in America now in the wake of the killing of Charlie Kirk, on the heels of the killing of Speaker Hortman and her husband, and just too much political violence. We've got to find our better angels. We've got to universally condemn political violence no matter where it is. Whether it's against Charlie Kirk or someone else, it is not okay. We all have to work together to condemn it. We've got to find our better angels the way we did here in Pennsylvania.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I wonder if with each new act of political violence, if you relive the horror that was brought upon your family?
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
I'm not laughing, I'm just processing what you asked. I do. I want to be very careful though not to equate what happened to me and my family to what happened to Charlie Kirk or Speaker Hortman, or others. I think this political violence leaves scars. Congressman Scalise and Congresswoman Giffords are examples of the physical scars, scars that you see when they walk, or when they talk, or when they sit. But it also leaves emotional scars. And I can tell you that I've battled that since the attack in April. My emotional scars have less to do with being governor, and a whole lot more to do with being a father, and a father to four children whose lives were at risk because of the profession I chose to serve other people. That's stuff that I've had to work through, and I continue to work through. Again, I don't want to equate the challenges that me and my family face with what Charlie Kirk's widow and his two children are going to have to face. It's not the same. But I can tell you that an attack against anyone leaves scars. I would also say that it's not just the scars that it leaves on those who are targeted, I think it scars a whole community. I think it makes us all less safe. I think it puts us all at risk. And it is something that is dangerous, it's insidious and it's designed, this political speech, to leave a scar on the individual, and to silence others. And we've got to stand up against that. We've got to fight back against that. We've got to be universal in our actions to combat gun violence -- pardon me, to combat political violence.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, I want to ask you about Charlie Kirk specifically. Governor Gavin Newsom praised Charlie Kirk's willingness to engage in debate and spark dialogue. New York Times columnist Ezra Klein says he was, quote, "practicing politics the right way." How do you see Charlie Kirk's legacy, Governor?
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
I see him as someone who was devoted to speech and debate. And, look, it should come as no surprise, I disagreed with a lot of what he espoused. And he probably disagreed with a lot of what I espouse. That's okay. We're allowed to disagree in this country. In fact, disagreement, when done constructively, is what helps perfect our union. It's what helps us make progress when it comes to policy differences, finding that common ground. So I appreciate the fact that he showed up in town squares and college campuses and sought to debate others, whether I agree with it or not. The answer to debate and speech that you don't like is not violence or taking someone's life. It's more speech. It's more debate. It's more engagement. And that's what we need more of in our communities.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, free speech and speech have been in the spotlight this week after the news that ABC pulled Jimmy Kimmel, a comedian, off the air after comments that he made on his late night show. What was your reaction to learning that he'd been pulled off the air?
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
Fear. Just worry for our country. Our foundational principle in this country, which has roots in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania -- William Penn settled here in the 1680s – is about freedom of expression, freedom of speech. And to see that being undermined by the long arm of the federal government is extremely dangerous. Again, whether you agree with Jimmy Kimmel or not, whether you found him funny or not, to fire someone because he told a joke about the president repeatedly and the president didn't like it, to fire him because he was inartful in his words in the wake of the killing of Charlie Kirk, when you have others in the media, and I mean this as no disrespect, who really inartful every day, right? That is dangerous when we are selectively firing people because of their viewpoints. And in addition to having Jimmy Kimmel no longer on the air, I think there's a deeper issue here I wanted to just take a moment on. I was on a Spanish language radio program in the Allentown area, the Lehigh Valley here in Pennsylvania, just the other day. The host was asking me a bunch of questions about the work we're doing here in Pennsylvania. And he said something really chilling to me, that he now has to think about what topics he's going to discuss because he's fearful he might offend federal regulators or offend the president. Now, this wasn't that type of a program where we were engaged in a lot of that conversation. But the fact that you have journalists now who will think, "Do I really want to probe some elected leader on that particular topic because it could offend federal regulators? Do I want to tell that joke because it might put someone off? Do I want to adjust my views to be more on the right-wing side of the political conversation to curry favor with these federal regulators?" That in many ways is even more dangerous than silencing one person, no disrespect, of course, to Jimmy Kimmel and his powerful voice. I think we're at a really dangerous moment here. And censorship, and what we're seeing from the federal government, only serves to further divide us and make us less safe, and erode our fundamental freedoms here in this country. And for a Republican Party led by Donald Trump, who loved for decades to, you know, cloak themselves in this blanket of patriotism and freedom, heck, Donald Trump was talking about free speech in his inaugural address, what was that, seven or eight months ago. And now, to see how quickly they are eroding one of the foundational guideposts of our nation should scare everyone, whether you agree with the president or not, whether you voted for him or not. We are all less safe and less free because of the actions of this administration.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to be very clear about what you're saying. Do you believe that President Trump and the Trump administration are trying to stifle dissent and people who would --
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
Without question.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– disagree?
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
Pardon me. Without question, they're trying to stifle dissent. The president in his own words, I think was aboard Air Force One a couple nights ago, made clear he wants to look at the licenses and the certifications for particular media outlets if all they're doing is attacking Trump. I mean, listen, the bedrock of our free society is the freedom of speech. The freedom for someone like you to ask me questions and opine about my work, whether I agree with you or not, whether I like what you report or not, you've got the freedom and the right to be able to do that. And that is something that protects all of us, all of us. And it is dangerous what this president is engaged in.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, you take me to my next question because President Trump has said maybe we should revoke the licenses of other TV networks. What are the implications of that? What was your gut when you first heard that?
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
In a society where we have less freedom, which is what the president is doing, restricting one's ability to speak, which is enshrined in the First Amendment, the First Amendment of our Constitution, we are all less safe. We are all less free. And if you attack someone today because of a particular political viewpoint, what's to say you're not going to attack someone tomorrow, silence someone tomorrow because of what they look like, how they pray, who they love? It's a really dangerous and slippery slope.
KRISTEN WELKER:
His argument is some of this talk is dangerous, some of this talk may have fueled the killing of Charlie Kirk. How do you respond?
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
The Supreme Court over decades, centuries of jurisprudence, has made clear that hate speech, whether we like it or not, agree with it or not, is legal. Inciting violence through speech is unconstitutional, is illegal. It can be restricted because, of course, we need to keep people safe. I think it is a long way to go to say a comedian on late night TV who tells a joke about the president of the United States that the president doesn't like, or let's take your network – Saturday Night Live, which makes fun of everybody, right, that that somehow incites violence. There is a big difference between hateful speech or speech that Donald Trump just doesn't like and speech that incites violence. For example, yelling "fire" in a movie theater. There can be blurred lines in terms of when you're getting close to what's inciteful versus what's just hateful. I think what the president's describing here doesn't even come close to that line.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to turn now to something that has gotten the attention of the country, but particularly the Democratic Party. We are starting to hear about the first excerpts and the book release of former Vice President Kamala Harris' book. It comes out this week. You were, of course, on the short list to be Vice President Harris' running mate. I want to read a little bit about what she writes about you. She writes that in your meeting, you seemed more focused on defining your role than helping her, that you even asked about artwork for the residence, and she worried that you would, quote, “be unable to settle for a role as number two.” Is that an accurate account?
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
I mean, look, I haven't read her book. The only thing I was focused on was working my tail off to deny Donald Trump a second term. I crisscrossed the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. I went to communities that the campaign didn't even show up in to try and make clear the dangers I saw in Donald Trump, that costs would go up and our freedoms would go down and be limited. Sadly, I was right about that, because now Donald Trump has been given the opportunity to return to the Oval Office. I worked hard to make sure that that didn't happen, and sadly, we were unsuccessful at the ballot box. As for the process I went through with the vice president, I said throughout it, she had a personal decision to make, obviously, and in the end, so did I, and I think that, you know, I'm going to go forward and continue to do this work now to push back on what the president is doing and try and protect my state.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are you disappointed, though, that she seems to be characterizing this decision-making process, invoking your name and some of the other contenders?
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
Look, I haven't read her book. I understand she's saying a lot of things about a lot of people, but I haven't spent some time on it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Trump won Pennsylvania by less than two points, Governor. Do you think you could have delivered this state for Kamala Harris?
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
I don't know. Look, at the end of the day, this was a choice voters had between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. They made their choice. I obviously disagree with it and I worked hard to do everything in my power to elect Kamala Harris and my good friend, Governor Tim Walz, but in the end, I respect the will of the voters.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Former Vice President Harris says it was, quote, "reckless” for the people around former President Biden to leave the decision up to President Biden and the first lady. Do you agree with her assessment that it was reckless for President Biden's inner circle not to intervene?
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
Again, she can explain what she means by that. I really can't comment on that. And again, I haven't read the book. Here's what I can tell you is that I made a point to speak to the people around the president repeatedly about what I saw were worrying signs here in Pennsylvania. And when I felt that they were not sharing that information directly with the president, I went directly to the president, to the former president, and shared that with him when we met at a coffee shop in Harrisburg. I was very direct and very blunt about what I saw were worrying signs electorally, about his prospects to be able to win again. So I believe in speaking directly to people when I've got something to say and that's exactly what I did.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you think Kamala Harris would be a strong candidate in 2028?
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
I think that's a question for the voters to decide.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We'll have to ask you about your own political future, of course. You are up for reelection next year. If you win, do you commit to serving out a full term?
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
Well, I haven't even announced my reelection yet. So let me focus on doing my work here in the commonwealth, the important work we're doing to invest in public education, hire more police, reduce crime, invest in the important work we're doing on economic development. I think, y’know, our growth in Pennsylvania has been explosive. We just landed the largest private sector investment in the history of our commonwealth. And at the same time we're doing all that, we're also making sure to stand up to the excesses of Donald Trump and protect our fundamental freedoms here. So I am focused like a laser beam on doing my work here in the commonwealth.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you rule out running for president in 2028?
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
Again, I'm focused on doing my work here. So let me focus on that, and I'll make an announcement about my reelection soon. So we're going to focus on 2026 and the work we're doing here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you're going to make an announcement soon about whether you're going to run for reelection --
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
Yeah --
KRISTEN WELKER:
– as governor?
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO:
– I don't think it'll be breaking news. But we'll be able to, you know, make that announcement soon.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, Republican Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. And joining me now is Republican Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky. Senator Paul, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. RAND PAUL:
Good morning. Thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good morning to you. Thank you so much for being here. Of course, today is the memorial service for Charlie Kirk. I know you have called him a friend. And, Senator, you of course have been impacted by political violence yourself. In 2017, you were on a baseball field when shots rang out when Congressman Steve Scalise was shot. He did survive. But, Senator, I wonder, what do you think the legacy of Charlie Kirk will be?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
You know, I went to many of Charlie Kirk's rallies. My wife spoke at his rallies. I spoke on campus with him, events similar to the one where he died. The events earlier on weren't as big. They got bigger over time. But he was an incredible young man, I think, articulate, thoughtful. And if you really see the people who came out to him that had a different viewpoint, he would hear them out. And that's different than a lot of the argumentation you see either on TV or on the internet where everybody's drowning people out. He actually would listen to people. So I think he'll be remembered for that and also being remembered for a guy that was trying to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. And that I think should be applauded.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, thousands paying tribute to him today, Senator. So we appreciate that. I do want to talk about ABC’s decision this week to suspend Jimmy Kimmel's late night show after, of course, he was criticized for comments he made in the wake of Charlie Kirk's assassination and hours after the FCC chairman, Brendan Carr, said this. Take a look.
[START TAPE]
BRENDAN CARR:
I mean, look, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. These companies can find ways to change conduct and take action, frankly, on Kimmel or, you know, there's going to be additional work for the FCC ahead.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, do you believe that Brendan Carr's comments were appropriate?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
Absolutely inappropriate. Brendan Carr has got no business weighing in on this, but people have to also realize that despicable comments, you have the right to say them, but you don't have the right to employment. Virtually everybody employed, probably including yourself, has a code of conduct in your contract that you have to adhere to. NFL players have it. Major League Baseball players have it. And if you don't adhere to that conduct, if you say things that are reprehensible or that glorify someone's death or make fun of it in some way, yeah, you can be fired. So the FCC should have nothing to do with it, but I do think that, you know, a couple of the networks pulled out, Sinclair pulled out, they were disgusted by the comments. That's their right. You can be fired for not being popular also. I mean, this is television for goodness sakes. You have to sell sponsorships. You have to sell commercials, and if you're losing money, you can be fired. But the government's got no business in it, and the FCC was wrong to weigh in. And I'll fight any, any, any attempt by the government to get involved with speech. I will fight.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, you take me to my next question, Senator, because I do want to ask you, broadly speaking, about free speech. I want to play something that President Trump promised during his inaugural address followed by comments that he made just this week. Take a look.
[START TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I will also sign an executive order to immediately stop all government censorship and bring back free speech to America.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
When somebody is given – 97% of the stories are bad about a person, that's no longer free speech. It's no longer, that's just cheating.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, do you believe that President Trump is sending the message that he only supports free speech when it's speech that he agrees with?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
Well, this is why it's kind of rich for Governor Shapiro also to come on and be outraged by censorship. Was he asleep for the four years of the Biden administration when they did have censorship? The FBI, Department of Homeland Security, were sent to the offices of Twitter. They were sent to the offices of Facebook. Facebook was told to take down information concerning the origins of the Covid virus, or they were being threatened with remove their liability protection, or being threatened with being broken up by antitrust. So we have had official censorship going on for many years now, and everybody on the left just looked the other way. They actually had an office, an office of censorship. So I applaud Trump for bringing that down. Now, saying we're going after the FCC licenses is wrong and inconsistent with that. I applaud Trump for getting rid of the censorship office in our government, but I think people should discontinue this idea of policing hate speech or sending the FCC after networks. I'm absolutely opposed to that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But Senator, just to be very clear. I mean, President Trump said that he vowed to, quote, "Stop all government censorship and bring back free speech to America." I hear what you're saying. But just to focus on what you are seeing right now from the president himself, do you think he's doing that? Is he protecting free speech?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
Well, actually it has occurred all throughout government. The Department of Homeland Security is no longer sending officers to Twitter to talk to them about taking down --
KRISTEN WELKER:
– But what about what President Trump is saying?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
The FBI is no -- Well, I can't control everything the president says. And I don't think that having the FCC weigh in on licenses is right. I will fight that. But I can tell you that throughout government, the censorship apparatus that Biden had put in place is gone. I actually have a bill to try to do that through legislation. But I can tell you throughout the Trump administration, they have stopped doing it. Now, it doesn't always match the words you're hearing now. I think people are raw. They're unhappy. They're angry. We're mourning the loss of Charlie Kirk. And we find it despicable what these people are saying. So some people think, "Well, let's resort to government." I'm not one of those people. But I also do think there are other ways that people can be let go. And Kimmel could be let go simply because of his contract, not making enough money or saying something that defies the code of conduct. So there's a lot of reasons he could be let go. It would have been much better if the FCC would have stayed out of it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, Senator, a couple more questions to get to with you here. I want to ask you about something that occurred on Saturday. President Trump publicly pushed his attorney general, Pam Bondi, to prosecute his political opponents. Let me read a couple of the people he mentioned: Former FBI director James Comey, Democratic Senator Adam Schiff of California, New York Attorney General Letitia James. He wrote on social media, quote, "We can't delay any longer. It's killing our reputation and credibility. They impeached me twice and indicted me five times over nothing. Justice must be served now." Do you believe it's appropriate for the president to direct the attorney general to go after his political opponents, Senator?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
I think lawfare in all forms is bad. What they did to Donald Trump by changing the statute of limitations, changing the law, adding up a bunch of misdemeanors, adding up a bunch of records violations and making them into felonies, approving hundreds of millions of dollars in fines when there was no aggrieved party. None of the banks complained. That was lawfare. But it's also wrong if Republicans do it, too. We need to get politics out of the judicial system as much as we can. But we can't do it without acknowledging that the king of lawfare was Biden. And so, yes, it's wrong if we do it. But it certainly was wrong when Biden and Democrats were doing it throughout the country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, Senator, if it was wrong then, you're making the argument it was wrong then. Is it wrong now? I mean, do you explicitly disagree with President Trump's post?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
I just said lawfare of all sorts is wrong, Republican or Democrat. It's wrong now. But you have to put it into context also and acknowledge that the king of all lawfare was Biden and the Democrats for four years. What they did to Donald Trump was an abomination. But yes, it is not right for the Trump administration to do the same thing.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay, and I think there would be a debate over that – over that characterization. But I do want to move on because we're running out of time. I have to ask you about the big topic that is consuming Capitol Hill right now. Of course, it's the possibility of a government shutdown. You were one of two Republicans who voted with Democrats, opposing the government funding bill, Senator. Do you think the government is headed towards a shutdown?
SEN RAND PAUL:I hope not, and I think it's disruptive to close the government down. The Republican plan would add $2 trillion to the deficit. The Democrat plan was going to add $3 trillion to the deficit. So this is my point: both parties are terrible at addressing our deficit. We have a $37 trillion debt, a trillion dollars in interest, and it's because both parties are terrible. So I'm not going to vote for the Republican plan or the Democrat plan. I think eventually they come together. But typically, the compromise is to make things worse. The compromise through the years is the right gets more military spending, the left gets more welfare spending, and the deficit continues to explode. Our debt has been downgraded; our triple A rating has been taken away. There is unrest, and I do believe that we face serious problems as a country if we don't do something so simple as just start spending what comes in. Balance our budget.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senator Rand Paul, thank you so much for your perspective and joining us this morning. We really appreciate it. And still ahead, my “Meet the Moment" conversation with Mel Robbins. But when we come back, the fight over free speech heats up. The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is. Amna Nawaz, PBS News Hour co-anchor; New York Times White House correspondent, Tyler Pager; Adrienne Elrod, former senior advisor and senior spokesperson for the Harris campaign; and Brendan Buck, former advisor to House Speakers John Boehner and Paul Ryan. Welcome to all. Thank you for being here. Amna, let me start with you. Let's talk about what has really consumed, I think, the headlines this week and the fact that President Trump has really sparked this debate over free speech. He suggested that any criticism of him could be really illegal. Take us inside the conversation with some of our sources. Where do you see this conversation going?
AMNA NAWAZ:
Yes we don't know what that legal argument would be in the White House, as you said, exactly what law would be broken if someone criticizes him. But look, since Charlie Kirk's killing, I've spoken to conservatives, independents, liberals, people who agreed with him, disagreed with him. All said political violence is completely unacceptable, but they defended his right to free speech like anyone else's. And that is not what the president is saying here. The president is saying the government has the right to suppress speech, to even punish speakers if he doesn't like what they have to say. And that is not what the constitution says, just to be clear. This was all telling very early in the presidency. We saw the president come out and attack the press, banning the AP from covering certain events, the Department of Defense banning some reporters from offices in the building, the president cutting federal funding for public broadcasting as well. It shifted. We have from going from the press to now going after comedians and even talking about jailing citizen protesters who insulted him in restaurants. I have lived, I have worked in countries where there are authoritarian leaders who jail people, punish people for what they publish, what they protest about, for what they post online, not celebrities and journalists, private citizens too. It is a slippery slope. We are on that path. And it's a very dangerous time.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Tyler you’ve sort of written about the contrast between how President Trump and former President Obama are responding to this moment. Where do you see this debate going?
TYLER PAGER:
Well, I mean, President Trump has fully dispensed with the bipartisan tradition of using moments of national tragedy to try to bring the country together. Think Bill Clinton after Oklahoma City, George Bush after 9/11, Obama after Gabby Giffords was shot or singing Amazing Grace after Charleston. President Trump is using this moment to try to go after political opponents and, you know, increase his crackdown on political rivals. And so I think we only see this escalating. The sort of rhetoric we're seeing not just from him, but from his, you know, administration, attorney general, it is only escalating from here. And I think that is as Amna said, only, you know, this slippery slope of what the next steps might be.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes, I mean, Brendan, Tyler tees up the question to you perfectly, which is we did see this post on Saturday in which the president directed his attorney general to go after his political rivals. What do you make of that? And is that anything other than an escalation?
BRENDAN BUCK:
Yes, I mean, the façade is clearly down. I don't think any of us around the table question whether or not he wants those prosecutions. But I think the most interesting thing about this, he feels so comfortable saying it so openly at this point. Look, this is a president who said he was going to end, as Rand Paul said, end the politicization of the government. We were not going to do this any more. And clearly that's out the window. He's going a step further, of course. He's also putting in place actual prosecutors to carry those things out when those things aren't happening. That's always been the guardrail is we have systems, we have structures. People have to go along with him doing these things. And those people, I guess, to this point, haven't sufficiently for him. So he is now changing personnel to try to get there as well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Adrienne, what do you make of how Democrats should respond? I mean, Brendan's talking about the idea of guardrails. Is there any possibility that they can be given, if they're in the minority?
ADRIENNE ELROD:
Well, I mean, you raise a point, we don’t, Democrats don't have a lot of power right now in Washington. But I think Governor Shapiro had a really good response which is, "We should all fear this. We should all be very concerned." You know, this is part of being an American, having our First Amendment right of freedom of speech protected by the Constitution. When Trump is actively going after some of the most fundamental rights that we have here in our country at the level that he is right now with the Constitution. By the way, we are, what, eight months into his presidency? You know, what's next? To your point, it is a slippery slope that he's going down. I think we have to continue to make that contrast and to also make it clear this is not just what Democrats don't stand for, but I think there's a lot of Americans who are seeing this, many of whom voted for Trump and have a lot of concerns, so in many respects, sort of playing itself.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes. Tyler all of this comes of course as we're the release of former Vice President Kamala Harris's book. She took this approach of naming names in this book. I talked a little bit about it with Governor Shapiro. What's the reaction been so far?
TYLER PAGER:
Yes, I think there's some surprise that this book is so backward looking, right? That it's a lot of Kamala Harris relitigating exactly what had occurred over the course of this campaign. And I think there, you know, the Harris aides say that the former vice president wanted to add her voice to this conversation. A lot of people have talked about the election. And she wanted to share her perspective. But it raises questions about her political future. Obviously, she chose not to run for California governor. She potentially may run for 2028, the Democratic nomination again. But a lot of Democrats are looking for a leader in this moment. They're looking for a path forward. And she does not appear to be laying out what that case might be. And I think that's causing some agitation among party leaders.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, speaking of Harris aides, you worked on the Harris campaign, Adrienne. Give us your take. How's this going over inside the party?
ADRIENNE ELROD:
Look, I just started reading the book. I just got a copy of it. I think she has more than earned her right to tell her story in her own words. Tyler, my friend here, wrote an excellent book. But we deserve it, she deserves to be able to share her story. I was on that campaign. I lived and breathed the chaos. But I also think that we need to take a step back and let her talk about what she experienced in her own words. At the same time, we are looking to move forward as a party. I hope to be a part of that, you know, path forward. I think people like Governor Shapiro will be a part of that. I think there's a deep bunch of Democrats who are going to use their voices effectively. And I think she'll be a part of it too.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, I guess the question is does this book lay a path forward for her, Amna? This is what David Axelrod told Politico, "If there's a political strategy here, it's a bad one. There's an awful lot of grievances and finger-pointing that really doesn't serve a political agenda." Could this help embolden her? Or is she alienating the people who supported her during the campaign?
AMNA NAWAZ:
I don't think we even know yet. And the thing is, I think we're all --
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's still early, fair point.
AMNA NAWAZ:
It's very early. It’s 2025, 2028 is a long way off. Clearly there's intention here. This isn't some tweet or live remark somewhere. She wanted to the narrative straight, to have her version of the story out in a way that she clearly felt she was too constrained to be able to do while she was trying to run the shortest campaign in modern presidential history, and trying to figure out and making the decision, we should know, not to break from President Biden at the moment. But if it's just narrative setting, you know, this is also something we should note that when, you know, one the biggest criticisms I think she always faced was that she was too buttoned-up, she was too cautious, that you didn't really know where she stood. This is clearly breaking from that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. So Brendan, I mean, that was the criticism during the campaign. She didn't break with President Biden. Boy, she's doing it now, with 30 seconds left.
BRENDAN BUCK: Yeah, sure. And if she had broken with Biden, maybe she would have done a little bit better. At this point though, what is the point of this? This feels so incredibly petty. If this was her, like, come-back story and telling why she deserves to be the nominee in the future, I think that she has absolutely failed. Because this, I'm not a Democrat, but I know this is a moment when they're looking for a path forward. And all she's doing is complaints and explanations of why she didn't win. Look no further than Josh Shapiro, it was very clear in your great interview with him, that he could not stand what she has done. And there's no love lost there. So I think that's a sign for what is to come.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, guys, great conversation. Thank you so much. When we come back, President Trump received a royal welcome in the U.K. this week. Our Meet the Press Minute looks at the enduring power of the British monarchy next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. President Trump's state visit to the United Kingdom this week hosted by King Charles marked an unprecedented second state visit for a U.S. president, making him the first in modern times to receive a second invite after his first state trip in 2019. Back in 1969, Prince Philip, husband of Queen Elizabeth, joined Meet the Press to defend the role of the British monarch.
[BEGIN TAPE]
LAWRENCE SPIVAK:
Your Highness, there have been reports which say that the British monarchy gets its strength and popularity because it hasn't changed, and then I have seen some that say it gets its strength and popularity because it has changed and become more modern. What’s your opinion on that?
PRINCE PHILIP:
Well, different things have changed. I think when people say that it has its strength from not changing, I think there is a sense of continuity. The fact that you have roughly the same people around all the time gives the community a sense that whatever changes there are, at least there is something that doesn't change all the time. I think this is a great strength, I think, a great advantage.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, my Meet the Moment conversation with best-selling author and podcast host, Mel Robbins.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Mel Robbins will be the first to tell you she’s not a therapist. But she has made it her mission to give people simple, practical tools to live better lives. Whether it's through “The Mel Robbins Podcast,” one of the most popular podcasts in the world; through viral online videos reaching more than 35 million followers; or bestselling books like “The Let Them Theory,” a deceptively simple idea that’s changing the way millions of people think and live. I sat down with Mel for a “Meet the Moment” conversation about how she turned her own darkest moment into a self-help movement.
[BEGIN TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
How would you, in the most simple terms, describe what the "Let Them" theory is?
MEL ROBBINS:
The "Let Them" theory is very simple. If you stop trying to control and change other people, suddenly you have more time, energy, and power in your own life to focus on yourself and improving it. That's it. That releasing control gives you so much control and peace back.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's not “let it go” because you follow "Let Them” with “Let Me.” Why is that an important component?
MEL ROBBINS:
Yeah, so there's two parts to the theory. The first one is "Let Them," and that's the part everybody loves because right now life is so overwhelming. And let's face it, other people are super annoying. They're very frustrating. You can go through your day, and from traffic, and you're gripping the wheel, or people walking slow, or talking close, or the meetings that are scheduled at 6:00 on a Friday, the guilt trips, it is going to drain all of your energy. And other people are the number one cause of stress in your life. But here's what the "Let Them" theory taught me: They don't have to be. See, you get to decide how much somebody else affects you. You get to decide how much brain space they take. You get to decide whether traffic or inconsiderate behavior or the headlines stress you out. And so "Let Them" is where you recognize. And it’s so simple – you don't even have to read the book. You can start using it after our conversation. The moment you're stressed out, or frustrated, or whatever, you just say, "Let Them." And you'll notice you're always stressed by other people. And the second you say, "Let Them," you recognize, "Okay, I can't control this person. So why am I going to let it bother me?" And then you say, "Let Me." And “Let Me” is where you take your power back and you remind yourself. And this is a very old idea. The "Let Them" theory is a modern take on ancient wisdom.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Forty-one years old, you say you hit rock bottom.
MEL ROBBINS:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You were out of a job. Your husband was struggling as well professionally. You very candidly discuss the fact that you think you were drinking too much –
MEL ROBBINS:
Oh, 100%.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– during this period. What was that moment like and why was it so pivotal for you?
MEL ROBBINS:
What happened to me is that when my husband's restaurant business started to go under and it took our life savings, liens hit the house, we've got three kids under the age of ten, I lose my job, I had never envisioned a life where I would face bankruptcy, I would be an alcoholic, I would be on the verge of divorce, that I would be losing everything that I cared about. And what's interesting about rock-bottom moments is you hit something solid inside you. That's how you know it's bottom. And what you hit is the resolve to change. See, you can either wait for things to get worse before they get better, or you wake up one day and say, "I don't want this to get worse. Nobody's coming. And if this is going to change, I have to take responsibility for changing it myself." And so what that moment taught me, because the simplest things were so hard. Getting out of bed, the bills. I hadn't opened my bills in six months. I hadn't asked for help. I hadn't stopped drinking. I hadn't looked for a job. I would wake up every morning and lay in bed like a human pot roast, feeling sorry for myself, staring at the ceiling going, "I hate my life. I hate my husband. I hate myself." And it felt easier to just avoid the things that I knew I needed to do. And I think this is one of the core things that I try to teach, which is you already know what you need to do. And if you don't, go to AI and just put in your problem. It'll give you ten things to do. The problem's going to be that you're going to wait to feel ready. And I've got news for you. Motivation is garbage. It's never there when you need it. You have to teach yourself this life-changing skill. And here's the life-changing skill: You have to train yourself to do things that you don't feel like doing. And for me, that started with teaching myself to get out of bed on those mornings that I didn't want to.
KRISTEN WELKER:
With the “5 Second Rule.”
MEL ROBBINS:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
This was transformative for you.
MEL ROBBINS:
So I was watching TV and I saw this rocket ship launch across the TV screen, and it gave me this, at the time, stupid idea. "Okay, I know what I'm going to do. Tomorrow morning I'm going to launch myself out of bed like a rocket." And my thinking was I'll move fast enough so I won't be in the bed when the anxiety and the depression and the overwhelm pins me there.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Wow.
MEL ROBBINS:
And the very next morning the alarm rang. And I started reaching for the snooze button, something I had done for six months in a row. I'd hit that sucker four or five times a morning. Kids would miss the bus. They'd be waking me up. That's how you know you're failing at parenting.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Oh, wow.
MEL ROBBINS:
When your kids are waking you up after they miss the bus.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Wow.
MEL ROBBINS:
But for whatever reason, I just started counting backwards. Five, four, three, two, one. And I stood up and it worked. And what's interesting is it felt like a victory, and it was. It was the first time in six months that the procrastination, the anxiety, the fear, the shame didn't win. I did. The better part of me, the knowing part of me did. And this is the important thing: Fear kills action, but action kills fear. And to me what's exciting about whether you're using "Let Them" and “Let Me” or you're using five, four, three, two, one or any of the things that I talk about on social media or I share on The Mel Robbins Podcast, what's exciting is that you are so much more powerful than you think. You have so much capacity to change your life for the better.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You talk about your podcast. And it's one of the most listened to podcasts in the country.
MEL ROBBINS:
Or world.
KRISTEN WELKER:
In the world.
MEL ROBBINS:
I'm going to claim that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, in the world. TIME Magazine said about you, quote, "What Robbins sells is not just advice. She's offering her listeners a reason to believe in themselves." Is that how you see your work and what you're doing?
MEL ROBBINS:
Yeah. I think that the thing that stands in people's way is discouragement. This sense that it hopeless. This sense that, "There's nothing I can do." That is a lie that you have either been sold or that you're telling yourself. And if you have all the information, again, if you can create a list today of all the things you could do to ruin your life, you can create a list of all the simple things you could do to improve it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's emotional for you. This is personal for you.
MEL ROBBINS:
Yes, it's very personal for me because I see it. We have anywhere between 9-11 million people that listen to this show every week. And we are at a moment in time where people do not have time for themselves, so it does not – I do not take it lightly that teachers and nurses and EMTs are finding time to listen to something that reminds you of what matters to you. That reminds you that you do have power. That reminds you that your relationships and being a good friend are important, and that matters.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You have also talked about your concerns about social media. You have more than 35 million followers, which is just remarkable.
MEL ROBBINS:
I think so too. But you know one of the best things about the success? It came late in life. When you have an experience in your 40s where you almost lose everything that matters to you you don't forget that. I know what it feels like to have groceries scan, and I know that I don't have money. And I'm hoping there's some glitch in the check card and somehow it's going to go through. And it doesn't. And you have to grab your three kids and walk out of there. That is a moment that you never forget. And so I am grateful that all of this happened later because I have not forgotten what matters. And what matters to me is my family. What matters to me is my friendships. What matters to me is that I wake up every day and I'm proud of the person that I am and I know that I'm doing the best that I can, and I'm fast to apologize when I screw things up. And my hope is that by sharing some of the things that I'm learning, sharing openly about the mistakes that I've made as a parent, as a spouse, as a human being, if I can save anybody else the headache and heartache that I caused myself and other people because I just didn't know, I didn't know how to do better, then that to me is a life well lived.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mel Robbins’ book “The Let Them Theory” is available now. And you can watch my full interview with Mel Robbins at MeetThePress.com. That is all for today, thanks so much for watching. We’ll be back next week because if it’s Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
