KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: American trauma. Conservative activist Charlie Kirk, a top Trump ally, shot and killed while speaking on a college campus in Utah.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
This is a dark moment for America.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As concerns rise over political violence, pushing the nation to a boiling point.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Coming together is what we ought to be doing. Not pointing fingers of blame.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
The radicals on the left are the problem.
GOV. SPENCER COX:
This is our moment, do we escalate or do we find an off ramp?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Plus: Border line. NATO scrambles jets to shoot down Russian drones over Poland, raising fears Vladimir Putin's war could spread into Europe.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
We tried the red-carpet approach. It ain’t working.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And: Her story. Former Vice President Kamala Harris criticizes President Biden's decision to run for re-election. My guests this morning: Republican Governor Spencer Cox of Utah, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, Democratic Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona and former transportation secretary Pete Buttigieg. Joining me for insight and analysis are: New York Times chief White House correspondent Peter Baker. Jeffrey Goldberg, editor-in-chief of The Atlantic. Kimberly Atkins Stohr, senior opinions writer for The Boston Globe. And Republican strategist Sara Fagen. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. The nation is once again reeling, after a horrific act of political violence. Conservative activist and influential Trump supporter Charlie Kirk shot and killed on a college campus in Utah, while answering questions about mass shootings. After a 33-hour manhunt, the suspected killer now in custody, a 22-year-old Utah resident, who was turned in by his family. In the last decade there have been a growing number of acts of political violence, impacting Democrats and Republicans. Utah’s Governor Spencer Cox casting this moment as a dangerous crossroads.
[BEGIN TAPE]
GOV. SPENCER COX:
I absolutely believe that this is a watershed in American history. Yes, the question is, what kind of watershed and that that chapter remains to be written. Is this the end of a dark chapter in our history or the beginning of a darker chapter in our history?
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is Republican governor of Utah, Spencer Cox. Governor Cox, welcome back to Meet The Press. Our condolences to the Kirk’s, to all of you in Utah who I know are grieving right now.
GOV. SPENCER COX:
Thank you, Kristen. It is a dark time in our state's history, in our nation's history. Our prayers and hearts go out to Erika, her children, and Charlie's family. Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor, let me start by just asking you to update us on the investigation. What more have investigators learned about the suspect and the motive here?
GOV. SPENCER COX:
Yeah. So there will be much more coming out on Tuesday when charges are filed. They are gathering evidence, interviewing known friends, people around the suspect. What we know so far, there are a couple things that we can confirm that have been reported, we can confirm that again according to family and people that we're interviewing, he does come from a conservative family. But his ideology was very different than his family, and so that's part of it. We do know that the roommate that we had originally talked about, we can confirm that that roommate is a boyfriend who is transitioning from male to female. So we know that piece. I will say that that person has been very cooperative with authorities. And we have additional evidence, forensic evidence, that has been processed. We'll be sharing that when charges are filed on Tuesday. So everything that we know confirms that this is the person. The why behind this, again we're all drawing lots of conclusions on how someone like this could be radicalized, and I think that those are important questions for us to ask and important questions for us to answer.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor, you say that the boyfriend, the roommate is cooperating with investigators. What specifically have you learned from this individual? And is the suspect cooperating?
GOV. SPENCER COX:
So what we have learned specifically is that this person did not have any knowledge, was shocked when they found out about it, when he found out about it. The suspect has not been cooperating so far. And so we're getting all of this information from family members, again people around the suspect, and then the forensic information that we have, which is confirming everything and more than what we were able to share in that initial press conference.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor, I want to ask you about something you said on Friday. You said, quote, "There was a radicalization that happened in a fairly short amount of time." How was the suspect radicalized? How quickly did it happen?
GOV. SPENCER COX:
Well, again, those are pieces of information that we're still gathering, trying to understand. We do know, and again this has been well publicized, that this was a very normal young man, a very smart young man, a 4.0 student, I think a 34 on the ACT, went to my alma mater, Utah State University, but was only there for a very short amount of time and dropped out after less than one semester. And it seemed to happen kind of after that, after he had moved back to the southern part of Utah. Clearly there was a lot of gaming going on. Friends that have confirmed that there was kind of that deep, dark internet, the Reddit culture, and these other dark places of the internet where this person was going deep. And you saw that on the casings I think. I mean, I didn't have any idea what many of those inscriptions even meant. But they are certainly the memeification that is happening in our society today.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor, I want to delve into some of the messaging that we have heard from you. Lawmakers, governors of both parties across the country have frankly praised what we heard from you on Friday, your unifying message. You said you see this as a watershed moment. How can this nation step back from the brink, Governor?
GOV. SPENCER COX:
So, look, you mentioned it in the introduction, but we have seen an escalation in violence that has been happening across the country. We've had periods like this in our past history. I've mentioned before in the late '60s and early '70s, certainly we saw these types of high profile political assassinations, another dark time in our history. People keep waiting for, you know, somebody to lead us out of this. And I think that's a mistake. I don't think any one person, certainly not a governor, I don't think a president, I don't think anyone can change the trajectory of this. It truly is about every single one of us. And I can't emphasize enough the damage that social media and the internet is doing to all of us, those dopamine hits. These companies, trillion dollar market caps, the most powerful companies in the history of the world have figured out to how to hack our brains, get us addicted to outrage, which is the same type of dopamine, the same chemical that you get from taking fentanyl, get us addicted to outrage, and get us to hate each other. I'm seeing it in real time, since the tragic death of Charlie Kirk. I'm seeing it in every corner of our society. The conflict entrepreneurs are taking advantage of us. And we are losing our agency. And we have to take that back. We have to turn it off. We have to get back to community, caring about our neighbors, the things that make Americans great, serving each other, bettering ourselves, exercising, sleeping, all of those things that this takes away from us.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Governor, you referred to social media as a cancer on Friday. That's an incredibly strong word. Do you believe that social media played a direct role in this assassination?
GOV. SPENCER COX:
I believe that social media has played a direct role in every single assassination and assassination attempt that we have seen over the last five, six years. There is no question in my mind. Cancer probably isn't a strong enough word. What we have done especially to our kids, it took us decade to realize how evil these algorithms are. And we're doing everything in Utah, first state in the nation a couple years ago to pass comprehensive reform. Sadly, these most powerful companies on Earth are suing us to prevent us from implementing these things –
KRISTEN WELKER:
And we believe we just lost our connection with Governor Cox. But there you heard him speaking very forcefully against social media saying that he does in fact believe that it did play a role in this horrific assassination. So our thanks to Governor Cox. Joining me now is Democratic Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona. Senator Kelly, welcome back to Meet The Press.
SEN. MARK KELLY:
Thank you again for having me on, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here at the end of an incredibly difficult week for the entire country. Obviously Charlie Kirk was one of your constituents. You have lived through and experienced political violence first hand. Your wife, former Congresswoman Gabby Giffords survived an assassination attempt in 2011. What do you make of this moment the U.S. is living through right now, Senator?
SEN. MARK KELLY:
Well, Kristen, let me just start by, you know, saying that this was a tragic day for our country on Wednesday. And I really feel for Charlie's family, his spouse, his kids, his parents, siblings, his friends. He has friends in the United States Senate, who I'm friends with. This was a horrible day. And I immediately, you know, thought back to the day in 2011 when I got that phone call. And I know Erika, his wife, got a similar call. And it is like a punch in the gut like I've never experienced before. Now, in the case of Gabby, she survived. Erika is going to have to live her entire life with, you know, losing her husband and, you know, kids without a dad. So this is a tragic, tragic day. And I was just listening to the governor of Utah. And, you know, it is an incredibly positive thing to have a unifying voice there on the scene speaking about what happened on this issue. And, you know, I'm worried about, you know, how do we move forward from here. You know, we've got social media companies that, you know, clearly are exploiting kids. There's more we can do about it. Certainly in the United States Senate we can. But this is a tragic week. And Wednesday was a tragic day for our country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you are talking about how this impacted you personally so deeply. And I imagine it impacted former Congresswoman Giffords very deeply as well. How is she processing this tragic week in America, Senator?
SEN. MARK KELLY:
Well, Gabby's been, you know, since the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, we've started an organization called Giffords. She's been working on this issue of gun violence in our country, you know, 24/7 basically. I would say this one in particular hit her pretty hard. And it's because she saw the video. You know, the video is all over social media. It's kind of hard to avoid. And you can just kind of stumble right into it. So, you know, she's had a tough week, I have to say. You usually don't see these mass shootings as graphically as this one. I hope some of these social media companies can scrub this, you know, off the internet because it's not good for kids to see this. So yeah, she's had a tough week. And, you know, she's thinking and praying for the Kirk family.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes, as is the entire nation. And we did hear from Erika Kirk, the widow of Charlie Kirk. I want to play a little bit of her message eulogizing her husband. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
ERIKA KIRK:
The cries of this widow will echo around the world like a battle cry. To everyone listening tonight across America, the movement my husband built will not die.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
How do you see Charlie Kirk's legacy, Senator?
SEN. MARK KELLY:
Well, you know, Charlie Kirk and I didn't agree on much politically. I'm a Democrat. He's clearly a Republican. He was one of my constituents. The one thing we did agree on is his right to be out there, speaking about issues on college campuses, like he was last Wednesday. He had every right to be there. And will give him a lot of credit. He gave people a platform. And he would listen to people across the aisle. I had a difference of opinion from him. I think it's hard to say. This was one of those moments I think the people remember and I think it's going to have a long-term impact. I hope it can be a positive one. I hope people go and start to think about: Are they getting their information from people who are trying to exploit us or people who are trying to unify us? We've seen this this week. I mean, we've seen the governor of Utah, who I got to give a lot of credit to, who has tried to bring this country together. We have not seen that from the president of the United States. And I don't think we can expect to. You know, I've seen it from, you know, my Senate colleague in Utah, John Curtis, you know, who is, you know, very thoughtful, you know, about, you know, how he's approaching this. So my hope is that people go to those individuals that are not trying to exploit this tragic event.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, let me ask you, because President Trump is blaming the, quote, "radical left" for the political violence in this country and certainly the event of this week. What is your reaction to his message?
SEN. MARK KELLY:
Well, I mean, it was 14 years ago that my wife was shot. You know, both sides of the political spectrum experience this kind of violence. Not too long ago, Melissa Hortman and her husband, in Minnesota, they were shot and killed. This isn't like one party committing all the violence against the other, I mean, this is clearly a pervasive issue in our country. We are more divided than we have been probably in my lifetime or yours. And if we don't collectively try to come together to fix it, you know, I think it can get worse. It can get a lot worse. I mean, there are people out there calling for civil war. Folks that are–you know, I think fair to say some of them are considered journalists out there, I mean online journalists. Some people might refer to them as trolls, but people that have huge followings. And when you have a platform, whether you're a governor or a senator or member of the House, president of the United States, you have to be very careful about your words. Because people are listening.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senator Kelly, again, thank you for joining us for your critical insights having experienced political violence first hand after this devastating week for our entire nation. We really appreciate it. Thank you, Senator.
SEN. MARK KELLY:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I now want to bring back Governor Cox. We have re-established our connection with him. Governor, thank you for standing by for us. I do want to continue our conversation. I was just talking to Senator Kelly and got his response to the message from President Trump. I want to play you a little bit of what we heard from President Trump this week and get your reaction. Take a look.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
The radicals on the right often times are radical because they don't want to see crime. They don't want to see crime –
FOX NEWS HOST:
Worried about the border.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
They are saying, "We don't want these people coming in. We don't want you burning our shopping centers. We don't want to shooting our people in the middle of the street." The radicals on the left are the problem. And they're vicious. And they're horrible. And they're politically savvy.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
What is your reaction to that message from President Trump, Governor?
GOV. SPENCER COX:
Well, look, I've talked to President Trump. President Trump is angry. And he has every right to be angry. A lot of Americans are very angry right now. And they're clearly was a leftist ideology with this assassin. And so I totally understand that anger. I also wish you would have played the clip where he quoted Charlie Kirk about the importance of non-violence. Because he said that too. And I can tell you that the president has reached out to me. He reached out to me after the press conference and thanked me multiple times for my words. That's probably a surprise to people. Also the reason I'm doing these morning shows –I don't do much national press any more – the White House asked us to come on and to talk about this because they're worried about the escalation that's happening out there. But again, I don't know why we feel like we need to take our cues that we as Americans have to get up in the morning and decide how we're going to react or act based on what the president says or what a governor says or what anyone else says. In my conservative philosophy, and quite frankly in my faith philosophy, we believe in agency. We believe that we are each individually responsible for ourselves. And the United States of America is a collection of a lot of different people. And again, no president is going to lead us out of this. It's going to be every single one of us.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor Spencer Cox, we so deeply appreciate your joining us and your perspective this morning and your updates on the investigation. Thank you very much for being here.
GOV. SPENCER COX:
Thank you, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Still ahead, my conversation with former Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg. But when we come back, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back, and joining me now is Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina. Senator Graham, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome, thank you for being here. I'm so sorry we have to meet under these circumstances again, Senator. You were on this program the day after the first assassination attempt against President Trump. My question for you this morning, Senator, what is your message to people this morning about this moment that we're in in this country?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Well, number one, my message to Charlie Kirk's widow is that our hearts are broken along with yours. To the MAGA world, the right response is to do what Charlie did, debate, organize, register voters, keep the movement alive through the political process. The bottom line here is that we all reject political violence. What happened to Mark's wife, Gabby, is just senseless. What happened in Minnesota is senseless. But let me just be honest with you. President Trump, nor do I, see this as the "all kind of do it" moment. I see this as an attack on a political movement. I see this being different. Charlie Kirk is one of the top three people in the country that allowed President Trump to win in 2024 by his efforts. And I think President Trump sees this as an attack on his political movement, what he created. A year ago, people tried to blow his head off. So this is not for me the "all do it." This is unique and different. This is an attack on a movement by using violence. And that's the way most Republicans see this.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And as Governor Cox just noted, President Trump has said he does not want any type of violence to come in the wake of this. He has also blamed Charlie Kirk's assassination on what he called the “radical left.” Elon Musk, though, posted on X, quote, "The left is the party of murder." We're hearing some of those same messages on Capitol Hill. Senator, do you believe this is the right message for this moment?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
I think what the head of the Oxford Union, the young man about to take over, is one of the greatest debating societies in the world, in Oxford, England. He said, "Charlie Kick got shot, let's f-ing go." There is an effort by the radical left to dehumanize the MAGA movement. And I reject political violence. If you are offended by what somebody says or does, then take up a political cause to fight back, not a gun, not a bomb, not a knife. We don't need a Mid-East moment here in America where it turns into just revenge killing. We don't need a Mid-East moment for America here. What we need to do is be honest with each other. President Trump is not just president of the United States. He's the leader of a movement. Charlie Kirk was his chief lieutenant. This is viewed by many people in the MAGA movement, conservatives like myself, is an attack on the movement, not just traditional, political violence. And I really believe that. And what I'm asking everybody to do is not to resort to violence to settle your political differences. To those wounded and hurt, Turning Point wasn't about an organization, it wasn't Antifa, it wasn't the KKK. If you really want to honor Charlie's legacy, get involved. Do what he did. Organize, debate, let's win in 2026. That's the best way to do this.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, very quickly, I hear in your voice, what you're saying, are you worried there could be retaliation?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yeah, you always worry about people, you know, somebody very close to you gets killed for thinking like you. Charlie was a symbol of MAGA to so many young people who felt disenfranchised. He said things that people don't like. I understand that. But the answer is not to kill him. This guy was something. He created a movement on colleges that no other Republican could ever create. He's one of the chief reasons that President Trump won. And I'm glad to hear his widow say that we're going to continue. But my advice to America here is, you know, killing people, that's what they do in the Mid-East. That's not what we do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
And Section 230 needs to be repealed. If you're mad at social media companies that radicalize our nation, you should be mad.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
I have a bill that will allow you to sue these people. They're immune from lawsuits.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senator, I want to talk to you about Russia, which I know you've been very focused on. This week, NATO planes, as you well know, shot down Russian drones in Polish air space. On Saturday, Romania scrambled fighter jets after a Russian drone entered its air space. You said this week, quote, "We've tried the red carpet approach, it ain't working." Is it time for President Trump to directly punish Putin?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
No, it is time for Europe to get behind President Trump to punish Putin's customers. Putin has been sanctioned, literally his economy has been sanctioned every way it can be sanctioned. President Trump's approach is to go after China and India. President Trump put a 25% tariff on every Indian product coming into America because they buy cheap Russian oil. He is now going after China. He posted yesterday to our European allies, mostly NATO allies, that he expects them to follow his lead by imposing tariffs on China for 50% to up to 100% on products coming into Europe. It is now time for Europe to get behind the Trump approach. The Europeans say they love the Graham bill. The Graham Blumenthal bill has 85 cosponsors in the Senate that will allow President Trump to tariff people who buy cheap Russian oil for their benefit, like China, India and Brazil. It is now time for the Europeans to follow President Trump's lead and go after China and India. If China and India will change their practices toward Putin, this war would end.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, well Senator, you introduced that sanctions bill against Russia six months ago. You have 85 people on board. Why issue an ultimatum to Europe and not Putin? Why not move forward with that bill now, and are you planning to?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Because the – Putin doesn't care about sanctions. No sanctions have worked here. He evades sanctions. He lives well. He doesn't care about how many Russians die.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are you going to push your bill forward though? Are you going to get your bill on the floor?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yeah, absolutely. Yes, ma'am. And let me tell you, the bill is not directed toward Putin. It's directed toward China, India, Brazil, and other countries that buy his cheap Russian oil and gas to give him the money to prosecute the world. The Europeans have been reluctant to follow that path.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, very – Senator –
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
President Trump put a 25% tariff on India.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Very quickly, are you going to try to link this sanctions bill to the spending bill? Is that your plan?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
I'll leave that up to the leaders. I think it'd be a good time to pass it. We have to fund the government by the end of the month. President Trump is calling on Europe to have a united front here. Scott Bessent's talking to the Europeans. Let me just say this very quickly. If Europe and the United States came together tomorrow and said, "You know, China and India, you can't have access to our economy, the European economy, the American economy, unless you stop buying Russian oil to keep Putin in business," I think it would change their behavior. And I think it's time for this bill to pass. I think it's now time for the Europeans to adopt the approach of President Trump, tariff those who buy Russian cheap oil and gas.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator Lindsey Graham, thank you for being here on a really significant Sunday.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We really appreciate it. When we come back, former Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back, and joining me now is former Biden Transportation Secretary, Pete Buttigieg. Mr. Secretary, welcome back to Meet the Press.
FMR. SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
Thanks for having me on.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you for being here at the conclusion of an incredibly somber week. You heard the governor of Utah, Governor Cox, cast Charlie Kirk's assassination, he calls it a "watershed" moment. And he asked the question, quote, "Is this the end of a dark chapter in our history or the beginning of a darker chapter?" How would you answer that question, Mr. Secretary?
FMR. SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
Well, I think it's the right question and the answer is up to us. Look, first and foremost, a man has been murdered. His family is grieving. Charlie Kirk had children, this should not have happened to him. And this should never happen to anyone. And I think Governor Cox and a lot of other people around the country are asking the question, "What does it take to make sure this never happens to anyone else?" And by the way, it's not just visible public figures who have reason to fear from this season, this era of political violence, it's every American because every American is harmed by this. It's an attack on an individual and an attack on a country whose entire purpose, entire way of being is that we can resolve what we need to resolve through a political process. But I think what happens next is up to leaders and up to ordinary Americans.
Right now, the categories that matter in responding to this killing aren't left and right or MAGA and Democrats. I think the only category that really matters here is helping or hurting. Are we doing things that help America move from this moment to a better place, or divide America and make us worse off? And I'm encouraged that there are voices – from the questions that Governor Cox has posed, who is a conservative Republican, who I disagree with on most things, but is a good man – to all the way on the other end of the political spectrum, someone like Bernie Sanders, who put out a comparable message reminding Americans about why we always have to reject political violence.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And to that point, I mean, you heard Governor Cox refer to social media as a cancer and the question I think becomes what to do about it. Do you agree with that assessment? Is social media actually a cancer right now, Mr. Secretary?
FMR. SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
Social media is clearly part of the problem in a big way. And it speaks to something that's even bigger than the political polarization of this moment, although I think the internet has played a role. But it's more than that. It's what is it doing to our brains? Look, every time there's one of these killings, in a summer that began with the assassination in June of a Democratic lawmaker by somebody with a kill list of Democrats, and is ending this September with the assassination of a conservative figure. And you go back through so many other cases, political and not of violence, there is not a consistent pattern of left versus right among the shooters. But there is a pattern where we see so many of these people are men, usually young men, who seem to spend more and more of their time in dark and twisted corners of the internet. And I think there is a sickness, not just the sickness of somebody who would pick up a gun and shoot someone, but I think a broader societal sickness that frankly I think you could see and feel in how many people around America, normal people, not dangerous people, were at a moment when we all should have still been praying for the victim and his family, were busy online praying for some shred of evidence that the shooter would turn out to be from the other political team. That is not healthy and that is not a way forward. But that is exactly what the algorithm pushes us to do. And this does seem to be especially acute for young men. Young men right now, statistically, are the group most likely to spend most of their time alone. That is a prescription for a deeper societal level of pain and unraveling that we have got to turn around. We can't go on like this. And I think it's especially important to remember that some of the very same people who are in these conversations online will be perfectly normal offline. That's why we do need to just put down the phone, put down the computer, step out and talk to each other in environments where our humanity comes through.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Secretary, I do want to get your response to some of what we've heard from the president. This from the Oval Office just this week. Take a look.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
My administration will find each and every one of those who contributed to this atrocity and to other political violence, including the organizations that fund it and support it, as well as those who go after our judges, law enforcement officials, and everyone else who brings order to our country.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
What is your reaction to hearing that?
FMR. SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
I want to be really clear about this. This is an example of something that is hurting. We're not getting the leadership that we need to bring this country together from the White House. And in order to turn the tide of political violence, yes, we have to reject those who commit political violence. Yes, we have to reject those who celebrate or promote political violence. But also, in order to deprive political violence of its power, we have to reject anyone who would try to exploit political violence. The response to this cannot be for the government to crack down on individuals or groups not because of violence but because they challenge the government politically. We need to have free and open political debate and a healthy political process in this country. And by the way, just like an overwhelming majority of Americans reject violence, an overwhelming majority of Americans, left, right, and center, believe that the government should not be cracking down on its political opponents because they are political opponents. Not in the United States of America. Not ever.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Mr. Secretary, I do want to shift gears here just a bit. I have to ask you about this new book, Vice President Kamala Harris, we are starting to see some excerpts. She writes about President Biden's decision to run for reelection and she says this, quote, "It's Joe and Jill's decision, we all said that like a mantra, as if we'd all been hypnotized. Was it grace or was it recklessness? In retrospect, I think it was recklessness." You were in the president's cabinet, of course. Do you believe it was recklessness for President Biden's inner circle not to intervene sooner?
FMR. SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
He should not have run. And if he had made that decision sooner, we might have been better off. But it literally was his decision. Nobody else was able to make that decision. And now in front of us, we're confronted with the decisions that come next, whether that's inside of a political party or movement or as we're all weighing right now, in our own lives, as Americans, as a country. And that's where we've got to focus.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Secretary, did you ever speak out and urge him not to run? And was it recklessness on behalf of the people who didn't do so?
FMR. SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
I was not included in the process of deciding whether the president should run again. He made that decision and I think I'm not alone in believing that he should have made the decision not to run sooner. But look, we are where we are as a country and as a party right now. And what matters now is how we build a different kind of future where people, I mean, not just politically, but nationally, where people can see themselves in what comes next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Secretary Buttigieg, thank you for joining us at the conclusion of a critical week. We really appreciate your perspective.
FMR. SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
Thanks.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Still ahead, the panel is here. But when we come back, why vice presidents have historically struggled to criticize their boss. Our Meet the Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Former Vice President Harris is out with some sharp words about Former President Biden, criticizing his inner circle for letting him make the decision alone about whether to seek reelection while defending her own choice to stay silent until Mr. Biden stepped aside. In 1968, Vice President Hubert Humphrey joined Meet the Press to explain why he refused to break publicly with President Lyndon Johnson.
[BEGIN TAPE]
VICE PRES. HUBERT HUMPHREY:
There may have been some nuances of differences if I were the president of the United States. But I must say to you gentlemen, to play president is not a role for a vice president. Maybe a senator can play president, but the vice president of the United States has a special responsibility, because he is the partner of the president. And one thing I've tried to do is to respect the limitations of that office. It has great responsibility with little or no authority. And I believe that I would have served to injure the cause of the United States and to injure this republic if I were to have injected myself with any little differences that I might have had publicly into the public arena. I've had to present those points of view privately in the consults of this government, and I think you men know that I'm not exactly the silent type. But I have been willing to present them on the occasion where I thought they were needed.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, can America find an off-ramp from this cycle of political violence? The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. New York Times Chief White House Correspondent Peter Baker; Jeffrey Goldberg, Editor-in-Chief of The Atlantic; Kimberly Atkins Stohr, Senior Opinion Editor for The Boston Globe; and Republican strategist Sara Fagen. Welcome to all of you. Thank you for being here. Peter, I have to start with you. One of the things that makes the assassination of Charlie Kirk so devastating is that it comes after a long list of political violence. Go back to 2011, the attempted assassination of Former Congresswoman Gabby Giffords. We have a list. This is just some of them. The attack on Paul Pelosi, the attacks against President Trump's life, January 6th. How did we get here?
PETER BAKER:
Yeah. I think beyond being a terrible tragedy, the Kirk assassination this week has held up a mirror on our country right now, and it's not a pretty picture, right? The governor of Utah, Spencer Cox, just said on your air that he wonders whether or not this is the end of a dark period or another step toward an even darker period. And the reactions, what happened in the days after, even the hours after the assassination indicates that it's not the end of a dark period. The country did not come together. The reason why Spencer Cox has gotten so much attention in these days is because his voice seems so disparate from the louder voices that are immediately latching on to this terrible event, and attacking each other, and casting blame without finding ways to calm the temperature down.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Jeffrey, I've had so many conversations this week with people who say this reminds them of the 1960s, that there are so many parallels between that season of political violence and what we are witnessing right now. Do you see parallels?
JEFFREY GOLDBERG:
Right. I do see parallels with the 1960s. There are also some parallels between the 1860s, which I do not personally remember, but we've been through periods like this. There are some differences, not to overstate it, obviously.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Sure –
JEFFREY GOLDBERG:
But in the 1960s, we had a draft and an act of war. Thousands of Americans were being killed every year. We had assassinations of a president, of the most important civil rights leader of our history. Things were very bad. What we have now also, though, we have social media. It's really, really true.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes.
JEFFREY GOLDBERG:
We are working at such a velocity, the human brain cannot handle the amount of information and, importantly, misinformation that is coming at us. And it overrides our ability to reason and apply logic. And so we did not have that, and the '60s were bad enough. But we did not have that factor when we're looking back.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Sara, you heard Governor Cox, Secretary Buttigieg focus on the dangers of social media, Governor Cox saying yes, it played a role in this assassination that, quite frankly, the world witnessed.
SARA FAGEN:
It clearly did. I mean, these young people, particularly young men, you know, are finding the dark recesses of these platforms, and they are becoming radicalized. People tend to though -- just to take a step back, people are framing this as ideological. There's increasing evidence that it's actually generational. We see polling out today where younger Americans, younger university students, you know, three in ten, four in ten think it's sometimes okay to use violence to silence political speech. The question –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Which is terrifying.
SARA FAGEN:
– it's terrifying. And why is that? That's really the question we have to go and understand. Social media's part of it. We put iPads in the hands of two-year-olds. We have universities that silence free speech, that demand uniformity, that have safe spaces for students where they're not allowed to hear things that they don't like and agree with, that make them uncomfortable. All of that contributes to this and much more. That is what we have to focus on and understand better.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Kimberly, the question becomes, "What is the path forward?" Governor Cox's message, which you heard, quite frankly, echoed by all of the guests this morning, but it has resonated across this country so strongly. Why do you think that is, and do you think that's going to be a guiding principle as we look to future elections, future leaders? Will that become, potentially, one of the standards?
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Well, I hope so, because that's something that is a model for others to follow. Look, I agree with everything that has been said, but I think we are at a moment now where there is a powder keg that just keeps getting bigger. And what we're seeing with this sort of radicalization on these dark recesses of the internet is that those are serving as flash points. But flash points are coming from all over the place, and we have this powder keg where the political discourse has become very personal. It's not a fight between ideas. It's a fight of, "If you don't agree with my idea, then you are the enemy, you are someone that we should fight against." And so when those sparks fly, then that's when we see this kind of political violence in a way that we have not seen in previous decades. So I think it's more than generational. I think that we have these additional factors ginned up by the internet, but the base of it is the fact that our politics have become vitriolic and extremely personal. It’s “people are the enemy of the nation”, the enemy of the people”, and that we are being invaded. When you start using those words, that's what gets us there, and that's what makes the possibility of violence so much greater.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, I do think this will continue to dominate the debate here in this country and the focus, certainly, moving forward. Jeffrey Goldberg, one of the other stories that certainly, and rightfully so, started out being a big story then, obviously, didn't get very much attention, but we do want to just touch on it this morning: the new book out by Former Vice President Kamala Harris.
You heard me talk about it with Secretary Buttigieg. You've obviously read it. We saw an excerpt of it in The Atlantic. She's really distancing herself from her former boss. Do you get the sense from the excerpts that have been released, that we've all seen, that there might be an attempt to lay the groundwork for 2028?
JEFFREY GOLDBERG:
Look, I always assume that a person of that level of intelligence and ambition, someone who's already an historic figure, is not quite finished in public life. So let's assume that she's going forward. I also have to underscore a very basic point. She wrote this because she felt slighted. She said what she did because she genuinely felt that she was mistreated by the Biden White House, and she's telling her truth, her understanding of what happened. And there's another point, which is that, you know, she wants people to know that she was handed a bad situation.
She was given 107 days to run for president because a decision that she now calls “reckless” on the part of Joe Biden to stay in the race. She says ego kept him in the race. I think a lot of people examining the reality of the situation last year would say, "That sounds like a reasonable conclusion she's drawn."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Peter, some of the language I mean, "reckless." You didn't hear Pete Buttigieg go so far --
PETER BAKER:
No.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– as to use the word reckless. She was under so much pressure during the campaign to distance herself from President Biden. She didn't do it then. It's really striking. As Jeffrey says, this is her version, her story, trying to set the record straight including on a lot of what happened while she was in office.
PETER BAKER:
Well, I mean, see, Jeff's read the book, so he's advantaged in a way I'm not. But we'll eventually see whether she talks about whether she should have distanced herself from Biden on policy, right, on inflation, on Gaza, on issues where Biden was kind of an anchor on her candidacy. We don't know that. But it's interesting, going back historically. I'm glad you played the Hubert Humphrey clip, because this is actually more the norm than not, right? Go back to the last five presidents. Every single one ended badly with their vice president for different reasons. And it's a lesson of how fraught that position is, because you're putting two people with enormous ambition who both want one job. Only one of them actually has it. Inevitably there's going to be some friction there, and we heard this privately for the last four years when she was in office, how unsupported she felt.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. All right. Well, we'll see if we get some type of response from Former President Biden. Thank you all for being here. Really appreciate it. Had four guests, so slightly shorter time to talk today, but appreciate the fantastic conversation. Thank you. That is all for today. Thank you so much for watching. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
