KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: War and peace. After hosting the Ukrainian president in the White House, President Trump plans another summit with Vladimir Putin in his efforts to try and end the war in Ukraine.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Stop right now at the battle line. I told that to President Zelenskyy. I told that to President Putin.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you think President Putin will ever be serious about peace?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Really, I don't know.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I’ll talk exclusively with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Plus, pushing back.
PROTESTORS:
This is what democracy looks like.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Protestors take to the streets nationwide rallying against the Trump administration as the government shutdown drags on.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
The bottom line is they won’t even negotiate with us.
SEN. JOHN THUNE:
At some point Democrats have to take yes for an answer.
SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI:
Everybody thinks they're winning. Nobody is winning when everybody's losing.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will either side give in to the pressure? I’ll talk to Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia. And: executive powers. President Trump says he authorized the CIA to operate inside Venezuela as U.S. forces escalate attacks against alleged drug boats in the Caribbean. All while a third Trump critic is indicted, charged with mishandling classified information.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I think he's a bad guy. Yeah, he's a bad guy. It’s too bad.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I’ll talk to Republican Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Washington Managing Editor Carol Lee; USA Today Washington Bureau Chief Susan Page; Neera Tanden, president of the Center for American Progress; and Republican strategist Sara Fagen. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER
Good Sunday morning. Across the country, protesters took to the streets by the millions on Saturday — according to organizers — to take part in the No Kings rallies, speaking out against what they say is President Trump's authoritarian rule. It comes as the president continues testing the boundaries of his executive authority. And Washington remains at a standstill with the government shutdown dragging into its fourth week. All while President Trump has his sights set on foreign policy, planning a meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Budapest after a high-stakes White House meeting with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy on Friday. Zekenskyy’s goal was to secure long-range Tomahawk missiles that can strike deep inside Russia. I sat down with President Zelenskyy on Friday, who told me in an exclusive interview that President Trump didn't say yes to the Tomahawaks but also didn't say no.
[BEGIN TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
In the beginning of the week, President Trump seemed open to giving Ukraine Tomahawk missiles. Then after speaking to President Putin, he changed his tone. Do you think President Trump changed his tone about Tomahawk missiles after speaking with President Putin?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
I don't know really, because we didn't meet before this phone call. But for today, it's good, again, that he didn't say “no”, yes, but I think that, you know, what he understands, maybe understood after phone call — I don't know, I was not in during phone call — but I knew about the Tomahawks, it's very sensitive for Russians. They're afraid that United States can deliver Ukraine — I think that Putin [is] afraid that United States will deliver us Tomahawks. And I think that he's really afraid that we will use — and he knows what military goals we know where they are, where the military goals of Russia. And he's afraid that we can use it. And that's why we are where we are.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are you disappointed that President Trump's answer wasn't “yes” on Tomahawks?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Of course I want, and of course we want. And, of course, we understand how we can use it. And to my mind, it can pressure on Russia and push Putin to negotiations, from my side. But it's to my mind. I don't know the dialogue between President [Trump] and Putin.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You know, during the Biden administration, you repeatedly asked for sophisticated weapons systems, and there were long delays in receiving them. Do you believe those delays were an obstacle to your winning on the battlefield?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Very difficult question, and I have to find something similar answer. You know, from the very beginning of this war, we have been not in comparable circumstances with Russia. First, the second biggest army in the world, then they attacked us. And they attacked us by missiles, by everything, by long-range. They attacked us by a lot of different things we didn't have. But what we had our will, our willingness. And we are very free people and that is all we have and, of course, our people and our warriors. But then, we began to produce. And of course when we began to produce and begin to push out Russians and we pushed them from 50% of the occupied territory from the beginning of the war, we pushed them during first months. And, of course, we needed very much, very big support. We are thankful to all the countries, but of course, if deliveries go quicker, yeah. And when it's slow, it's understandable that Russia knows everything. You know, like about Tomahawks for example, before this administration, previous administration, I asked for long-range. I asked about Tomahawks. Russia did not prepare. They didn't know about it. Of course, such surprises, of course, they can make you more stronger. But then we spoke so long time, now everybody knows now about Tomahawks. And Putin calls to President Trump. I think one of the reasons [is] because he's afraid that President will give us Tomahawks.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you, because President Trump said property lines should be defined quote, "by war and guts" after your meeting. "They should stop where they are," he said. You have said territory would be the most difficult part of negotiations. Are you now willing to negotiate some territory — to give up some of Ukraine's territory — in order to end this war, Mr. President?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
I understand the signal and message from President [Trump’s] public message. Yes, he published after our meeting, yes, as I understand it?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Uh-huh, after your meeting —
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Yeah, so I understand that we have to finish this war and begin this finishing from the place where soldiers stay, from the contact line, as I understood correctly. Yes, I agree that, if we want to stop this war and to go to peace negotiations urgently and in diplomatic way, we need to stay where we stay, not to give something additional to Putin because he wants. Because, I mean, he's [a] terrorist. That's it, I can't find other words. You see my level of my English is enough just to find correct words about this person. So that's why we have to stay where we stay. Then begin any format — I said it several times — in any format bilateral, trilateral, but we need to negotiate. Peace talks have to be in — have to be in quiet situation. Not under missiles. Not under drones.
KRISTEN WELKER:
There has to be a ceasefire in place before you can negotiate —
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
I think, yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Russia has launched some of its biggest attacks against Ukraine since President Trump's summit with President Putin in Alaska. Give us a sense of what's happening right now on the battlefield. Is Ukraine losing this war or winning this war?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Well, we are not losing this war, and Putin is not winning. And really, his army now [is] in a weak position. I think so, because they really from the beginning of this war, they could occupy 1% of our land, but they spent 1,300,000 people and I think this is high price, yes, for such land. And really I don't understand why the leader of the country, which has the biggest territory in the world, they need some more kilometers — that's why I think that this war is not about the land and not about territory for him. It's about our sovereignty and about our independence. And he can get it how to get different instruments — territories [is] one of the instruments — that's about it. On the battlefield, he's not winning. That's why he really escalates airstrikes. And you are right, he's using missiles and drones on our — he wants disaster — energy disaster during this winter by attacking us, each day 500 Iranian drones and 20-30 missiles. That's why we need air defense and long-range. He has to feel what we feel.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You take me to my next question, because President Trump says he will meet with President Putin for a second summit in Budapest in the next couple of weeks. President Trump says he thinks President Putin does want to end this war. He just said that. Do you think President Putin will ever be serious about peace?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Really, I don’t know. Really, I don't know that he's ready for real peace negotiations. Of course, time will come when pressure will come on him — enough pressure on him, and he will be ready. In any way he [is] afraid of his society. More pressure on him and not so comfortable life for his nation, they will pressure on him. He's afraid only of his society because he wants to be president until he will die. And that's why, of course, he needs society to support him. That's why he counts on continuation of this war. And that is what is the big question, the big challenge for all of us. That's why I'm not sure that in Budapest he will be ready. But if, God bless, President [Trump] will pressure on him — and if Putin will be ready for any format, again I’m sorry I’m repeating, any format of negotiations, bilateral, trilateral, any kind of — I think it will be good.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Trump was asked whether he thought President Putin was trying to buy more time. Here's what he said, "I've been played all my life by the best of them, and I came out really well," President Trump adding, "But I think that I'm pretty good at this stuff. I think that he wants to make a deal." Do you think President Putin is, in his words, playing President Trump?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
He wants to postpone real negotiation meetings. He wants to postpone any kind of meetings with me, because he understands that he has to make outcome of any kind of meeting — peace meeting. All the world, all the leaders will wait — if leaders of the countries which are in war meet, it mean that they will come with something positive for the world. And for the people, first of all, that's why he will postpone. Then he wants to postpone sanctions. He [is] afraid [of] sanctions of President Trump, tariffs, and of course, secondary sanctions which are very painful for Russian economy. So he has a lot of losses. He really has problems with economy and with people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you want to be a part of the negotiations in Budapest? Has there been any discussion about that?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
We spoke about it. They will discuss with Putin. He wanted to hear my opinion. My opinion, if we really want to have just and lasting peace, we need both sides of this tragedy. Yes, he's an occupier, but Ukraine is suffering and fighting. And, of course, how can [there] be some deals without us about us? Yes, and I think it's more simple, because all of us, we need to share the view. Because I'm not sure that Putin is ready just to finish this war, I think that maybe he wants to come back with aggression.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You will push to go to Budapest?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
I'm ready. I'm ready. I said to the president, "I'm ready."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Part of President Trump's success with Israel and Hamas was that he applied pressure to all sides. Does President Trump need to get tougher with President Putin?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
Yes, and even more because Putin is something similar but more strong than Hamas. It's more bigger war, and he is the second army in the world. And that's why more pressure.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Trump did campaign — my final question — on the idea that he could end this war. He promised he could end this war. Do you think President Trump can end the war in Ukraine?
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
God bless. God bless, yes.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, Republican Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Joining me now is Republican Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky. Senator Paul, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. RAND PAUL:
Thanks for having me. Good morning.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thanks so much for being here. Let's start right there with my conversation with President Zelenskyy. You heard us talking about the second summit that President Trump is poised to have with President Putin in Budapest – of course coming on the heels of that first summit in Alaska – Senator, do you think this second summit will be worthwhile?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
You know, I think the most important thing that Zelenskyy said this morning was that he was willing to negotiate with a ceasefire with troops in place. And I think that's an important step forward because if we wait and say, "Oh, we'll negotiate when Russia leaves Ukraine," I think negotiations never start. But I think the other thing that could happen, you know, with President Trump moving forward is everybody talks about, "Well, there needs to be more force on Putin." There may not be enough force to get Putin to do what we want. But there's also the other half of the equation. There's the stick, but there's also the carrot. We have a lot of sanctions. We have almost no trade with Russia. We've tried to force the world not to trade with Russia. You know, exchanging that for real peace, re-instituting and opening up trade is a huge carrot. But most people in Congress, when I hear them talk, they say, "Oh, we're never getting rid of the sanctions until they give the land back." The problem with that is then the carrot's not effective because Russia says, "We – we fought for it, and our soldiers died for it, we're not giving it back." But there's a possibility of more trade and lessening of tension and lessening of – of the sanctions where they would have more trade with the West, I think that's a carrot that might induce them to a peace agreement.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, we'll watch to see how it all unfolds, Senator. I do want to ask you about some comments that President Trump actually made about you. This was a post on Friday night. Let me read you, get your reaction on the other side. He said, quote, "Whatever happened to Senator Rand Paul? He was never great, but he went really bad. I got him elected twice in the great commonwealth of Kentucky, but he just never votes positively for the Republican Party. He's a nasty little guy." Why do you think President Trump is targeting you, Senator?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
I think the problem is this – is that in Washington what I represent some people describe as unusual, and the president describes it as weird that I'm for less debt and balanced budgets. But when I come home to Kentucky or when I travel the United States, people come up to me and say, "Stick to your guns. You're the only voice up there, Republican or Democrat, who's still talking about the debt and still talking about balanced budgets." But I don't take it too seriously. Look, I've known the president for over a decade. I've played golf with him many, many times. I enjoy his company. I was one of his biggest defenders on impeachment and would do so again. I think he's one of the best presidents, if not the best president of my lifetime. But it doesn't mean I will sit quietly and say, "Oh well, whatever you want to do." I was elected to have a voice, and so I continue to be a voice – like on the bombing of the Venezuelan boats, I think that's inappropriate. War with Venezuela without Congress's opinion or Congress's weighing in and authorization is inappropriate. The tariffs are bad for the economy, but it doesn't mean I dislike Donald Trump. So he gets mad at me sometimes, but I'm still one of his best supporters if he's willing to have it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, you bring me to my next question, which is Venezuela. Obviously, you've been very focused on this. President Trump has authorized military strikes against suspected drug boats in the Caribbean. As you know, so far more than 20 people, Senator, have been killed in six different strikes. Do you believe that these strikes against these suspected drug boats are legal?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
No, they go against all of our tradition. When you kill someone, you should know, if you're not in – at war, not in a declared war, you really need to know someone's name at least. You have to accuse them of something. You have to present evidence. So all of these people have been blown up without us knowing their name, without any evidence of a crime. And for decades, if not centuries, when you stop people at sea in international waters or in your own waters, you announce that you're going to board the ship and you're looking for contraband, smuggling, or drugs. This happens every day off of Miami. But we know from Coast Guard statistics that about 25% of the time the Coast Guard boards a ship, there are no drugs. So if our policy now is to blow up every ship we suspect or accuse of drug running, that would be a bizarre world in which 25% of the people might be innocent. The other thing about these speed boats is they're – they’re 2,000 miles away from us. If they have drugs, they're probably peddling drugs to one of the islands of Trinidad or Tobago off of Venezuela. The idea that they're coming here is like – it’s a huge assumption and really should have to present some proof. It is the difference between war and peace. In war, though, you don't ask people's name. But if they want all-out war where we kill anybody and everybody that is in the country of Venezuela or coming out, that has to have a declaration of war. It's something that is not pretty, very expensive, and I'm not in favor of declaring war on Venezuela, but Congress should vote. The president shouldn't do this by himself.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about what appears to be an escalation. Because in an extraordinary moment, President Trump acknowledged that he has authorized a covert CIA operation inside Venezuela. The Pentagon has scaled up U.S. forces and military assets in the region. Here is what President Trump said about Nicolás Maduro this week. Take a look.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
He has offered everything. He's offered everything. You're right. You know why? Because he doesn't want to (CENSORED) around with the United States. Thank you, everybody.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
You talk about war, Senator. Do you believe that President Trump wants to go to war with Venezuela?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
You know, I don't know what his actual intentions are. I can say, though, that not being a master of spy craft, if you announce that you're going to have covert CIA action, it's no longer covert. So if you're going to spy on a country, you usually don't announce that you're going to spy on a country. So it's a little bit unusual there. I do think there are members of his administration who have been agitating for war with Venezuela for a long, long period of time. And once again, there's the stick and the carrot. Yes, the president's right. They know that we would defeat them in a matter of days. But the chaos that ensues – you know, we've had regime change, and President Trump, one of the things I liked about him is that he for a long time said that he's not for regime change. He was against regime change in the first Iraq war. He was against regime change in Libya when President Obama promoted it. And out of both of those wars came trillions of dollars of expenditures but also decades more of violence and instability and chaos. And with regard to Libya, the spread of weapons to terrorists all throughout Sub-Saharan Africa. So regime change isn't always what – what is – what you expect to get.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, almost out of time and a couple more topics to get to. I do want to ask you about the government shutdown now stretching into its third week. You have actually voted with Democrats “no” on this measure to reopen the government. Senator, do you share some of the blame for this government shutdown?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
The way I look at these votes is they're determining the spending level. So the – the legislation doesn't say, "Do you want to keep government closed or keep it open?" Both parties, when they're in power and the – the roles change, are guilty of saying, "Oh, you want to shut the government down." Even though I'm not with the Democrats, I didn't vote for their Democrat spending bill, and I didn't vote for the Republican spending bill. I did so because the spending levels lead to an enormous amount of deficit. The Republican bill will lead to $2 trillion of deficit next year. The Democrat bill $3 trillion in deficit. So I opposed both. But it's not really that I oppose shutting the government down. So I'm in favor of paying the troops, I'm in favor of paying all of the employees that are currently working. And if that procedure or that vote comes before us next week, which I think there's a chance that it will, I will support that. I voted to get on to the defense appropriations bill last week, which means moving forward towards opening the government and spending the money. Doesn't mean I agree with the level of spending, but I think they're not exactly the same vote.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay, significant headline there, that you are a yes if, in fact, that bill does come to the Senate floor to pay federal employees. Let me ask you about something that got a lot of attention this week. POLITICO published portions of a group chat. This was posted by a group of young Republicans all around the country in which they refer to Black people as “monkeys” and the "watermelon people." They mused about putting political opponents in gas chambers. Most Republicans strongly condemn this, Senator. Here's how the vice president handled it.
[BEGIN TAPE]
VICE PRES. JD VANCE:
But the reality is that kids do stupid things, especially young boys. They tell edgy, offensive jokes. Like, that's what kids do.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
But of course, Senator, as you know, the people on that group chat were in their 20s and 30s. One was a state senator who has since resigned. Was it appropriate for the vice president to downplay the comments by that group chat?
SEN. RAND PAUL:
I don't think we should make excuses for that kind of language or condone it. The only thing I would say on the other side is you also shouldn't be permanently shunned from society and not permitted to work. But no, I don't think we should play down the language. I think the language is, under any circumstances, inappropriate and shouldn't be accepted.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, Senator Rand Paul, we got through a lot of questions today. Really appreciate your joining us. Thank you so much.
SEN. RAND PAUL:
Thank you for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. And joining me now is Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia. Senator Kaine, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Kristen, good to be with you. Thanks.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it's great to have you here. Let's start again with my conversation with President Zelenskyy. You heard him tell me that he believes those long-range Tomahawk missiles are going to be critical, not just for battlefield advantage but for getting Putin to the negotiating table. Do you think the Trump administration should give Ukraine those Tomahawk missiles?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Kristen, I would – I would very much support that. Tomahawk missiles have – have long been used by the United States, and they're primarily a sea-launched platform, which means we can't really give them to other nations. But more recently, we developed the ability to launch them from land. And I think they would be useful for Ukraine. The president does have to weigh, we need these missiles ourselves. We don't have an infinite number. They're expensive. You can't just produce them by waving a magic wand. So you do have to balance the – the need of the United States to have these missiles for our own readiness. But I would support the delivery of an appropriate number of Tomahawk missiles to Ukraine.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, I want to turn now to the government shutdown. This is obviously impacting tens of thousands of your own constituents, Senator. This week –
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Absolutely.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– the Republican leader in the Senate, John Thune, says he has offered Democrats a vote on extending Obamacare subsidies but says Democrats first have to reopen the government. Why not take that offer: vote to reopen the government and then hold a vote on extending the Obamacare subsidies?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Here's the reason, Kristen, and there's really two issues at stake. And the first is everybody's health care is going to go sky high between now and the end of the year because of the reconciliation bill cuts that Republicans made to tax credits and to – to Medicaid. And we're trying to stop that from happening. Offering a vote in the Senate without a commitment that it would pass, without a commitment that the House would even take it up, is an empty offer. We want to negotiate a resolution so people's health care costs don't spike. And Republicans are saying the same thing. They know they need to fix this, so let's fix it now. The second issue we need to know is that a deal is a deal. If we shake hands with President Trump on a deal, we don't want him then next week just firing thousands more people, canceling economic development projects, canceling public health funds. So we are trying to get an agreement that a deal is a deal, all sides will honor it, and let's go ahead and protect people from these spiking health care costs. The promise of a vote in the Senate without the promise of action is hollow.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, back in 2019 you made a similar argument during that shutdown that Republicans are making now. Republicans at the time were asking for more funding for a border wall. You said, "Let's reopen the government first." I want to play a little bit of what you had to say.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. TIM KAINE:
We first should reopen government. Why punish people who are applying for food stamps because the president is having a temper tantrum? Open government first.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
So Senator, by your own logic, should Democrats not vote to reopen the government first and negotiate later?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Kristen, here's what's different now. The president told the Republicans to write this budget without any Democratic involvement. He instructed them to do this without any Democratic involvement. That's not the way things work here. And so when the Republicans wrote up this budget, we didn't sit on our hands. We came up with an alternative that protected people from rising health care costs. We put it on the table on the 19th of September, well in advance of the funding deadline. We asked to meet with the president. He wouldn't do it until the day before the deadline. And when he met afterwards, he tweeted out pictures of Democratic leaders with AI-generated sombreros and funny accents. He's not taking it seriously. We will get out of this shutdown within a matter of days or hours once the president engages. We all have to come together on this, Democrats and Republicans, House, Senate and the White House. The president can't say, "I will dictate terms that you have to follow." And so the way we've avoided shutdowns in the past and the way we got out of the shutdown that President Trump forced us into in 2019 was the president engages and we find a path forward. If he will engage, we'll find a path forward.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, I do want to turn now to these military strikes taking place in the Caribbean. You just heard me talking about this with Senator Rand Paul. It's important to underscore you and Senator Paul are actually teaming up on legislation that would require the president to go to Congress before taking these types of strikes. Do you think that there is enough support in Congress to pass that legislation?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
I think we're going to see this in about ten days. Senator Paul and I co-sponsored a resolution to say, "No strikes against these boats in international waters without congressional approval." And we did not get enough votes. We did get all Democrats and two Republicans, Senator Paul and Senator Murkowski of Alaska. But we filed a new one saying, "No war against Venezuela or war within Venezuela." I think the – the massing of U.S. troops, the president's own announcement that he's authorized covert operations in Venezuela. I chuckled when Senator Paul said it's not covert once you publicly announce it. I – I think we're going to get more Republicans onboard with the notion that the president should not go to war without a vote of Congress. This is the most sacred responsibility that Congress has. The Constitution says war is a matter for Congress to declare, not for the president to initiate unilaterally. And – and, Kristen, we're coming up on 250 years of American democracy. Remember that the framers of our Constitution chose to put the war power in the hands of Congress even though George Washington was president. They loved George Washington. They revered George Washington. But they didn't think a decision about going to war should be in the hands of one person, even a general as great as George Washington.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. I do want to talk about what's happening in your home state. Elections just weeks away in Virginia, and the Democratic candidate for attorney general Jay Jones is facing bipartisan backlash after text messages he sent were publicized. I'm going to let folks know what they said. He effectively said that the top Republican lawmaker in the state should, quote, "Get two bullets to the head." He was asked about that during a debate this past week. Here's how he responded.
[BEGIN TAPE]
JAY JONES:
I am ashamed. I am embarrassed. And I'm sorry.
VA ATT. GEN. JASON MIYARES:
If you were truly sorry, you would not be running for this office.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, should Jay Jones drop out of this race?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
No he shouldn't, Kristen. Those texts, private texts with a colleague, cannot be defended. They cannot be defended. But Jay Jones has apologized earnestly. The Republicans knew about these texts for years. They waited until the ballot was printed, and they waited until hundreds of thousands of people had already voted, beginning on September 19th. The voters will make up their mind about these texts. The voters have to make up their mind in our governor's race. The Republican gubernatorial candidate spoke about pro-choice activists and said, "Murder is murder and your time will come." The voters have to grapple with that. I've known Jay Jones for 25 years. I think this single text exchange that he had with a colleague was very out of character for him. And that's why I continue to support him.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let me ask you this, Senator, because a lot of people look at this and – and I think they ask the question, "If this were a Republican, would you be calling for him to drop out of the race?"
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Absolutely not. It is – it’s directly equivalent to things that the Republican gubernatorial candidate has publicly said, not in private text. "Murder is murder and your time will come." She said that in a public meeting speaking about pro-choice activists. I've not called for her to drop out of the race. The – the voters began voting in Virginia on September 19th. These are fair items for voters to consider as they cast their vote. But no, we're not calling for Republicans to drop out of races. We do say apologize. You have to take account for your actions, and voters can look at the actions and look at your sincerity if you apologize. Apologies are in short supply in politics these days. I wish more people in politics would apologize for their – for their bad actions and bad words.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, very quickly, do you worry that this entire controversy could hurt the Democratic gubernatorial candidate Abigail Spanberger and her chances of winning?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Kristen, I don't. For your – for your viewers who aren't Virginians, we have a race two weeks from Tuesday, governor, a race for lieutenant governor, a race for attorney general, a race for every seat in our House of Delegates. Four big races. We're a battleground state. I think those outcomes will send a message, not only about Virginia, but about America in 2025. I think we're going to do very well. I obviously think Jay Jones's race for AG has been significantly affected by that. But everything we're seeing suggests that the other races, and especially the marquis race for governor, is not being affected by this.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senator Tim Kaine, thank you so much for your time this morning. We really appreciate it.
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Absolutely. Glad to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Great to have you here. When we come back, the Supreme Court weighs a critical decision on the Voting Rights Act. Our Meet the Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The Supreme Court heard arguments this week in a case that could further weaken the 1965 Voting Rights Act. The court's decision could threaten majority-minority districts nationwide, potentially giving Republicans upwards of a dozen new safe seats and possibly cementing their control over the House of Representatives for years to come. Years before he signed the Voting Rights Act into law, then-Senator Lyndon B. Johnson joined Meet the Press as a vice presidential candidate and he spoke about the importance of expanding the right to vote.
SEN. LYNDON B. JOHNSON:
I think with the help of the leaders of all the races and all the states that we will continue to go forward as the Democratic Congress has gone forward, first in the 1957 bill and again in the 1960 bill. I think that the Negro is going to be able to do much more for himself than anyone else can do for him, and he can do that under the 1957 and 1960 bills by participating in the elections. In some instances that participation has been denied him, but I think this November you will see a record vote of Negroes in the South, and I think it will represent a great step forward. I don't mean that voting will be the only step, but I mean that through the franchise they can obtain for themselves things that no one else can guarantee them.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, President Trump pursues the art of the deal overseas while conflicts grow on the home front. The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back, the panel is here. NBC News Washington Managing Editor Carol Lee; Susan Page, USA Today Washington Bureau Chief; Neera Tanden, CEO and President of the Center for American Progress; and Republican strategist Sara Fagen. Welcome to all of you. Thank you for being here. Carol, let me start with you on Ukraine. You heard my conversation with President Zelenskyy. He called the meeting with President Trump productive. At the same time, you could feel his disappointment that he didn't walk away with those tomahawk missiles that he was asking for. Where does this go from here, given that there is this second summit in Budapest?
CAROL LEE:
Well, firstly, President Trump needed to settle this question of whether the U.S. was going to allow Ukraine to get these tomahawk missiles. He sent some mixed signals from the perspective of the Ukrainians earlier in the week saying, "Maybe we'll do this," and then speaking to Russia President Putin on Thursday, and then on Friday directly telling Zelenskyy, "No, not right now." And that's because the president believes that giving Ukraine those missiles would prolong the war rather than end it. And obviously President Zelenskyy feels the opposite. He thinks that Ukraine needs these missiles, as he told you, so that Putin feels how we feel, in order to get serious about peace. And once again, that's the big question here. Is President Putin serious about peace? And we've seen this dynamic before. President Putin speaks with President Trump only when President Trump sounds like he's very serious about taking some of these tougher steps towards Russia that he's promised for months that he would take and hasn't. And yet now, President Putin has managed to secure another meeting with the president and delay some of those actions.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and Susan, of course the week started with this extraordinary historic moment in the Middle East, the hostages being released by Hamas. President Trump had applied pressure, as I noted with President Zelenskyy, to all sides to get that ceasefire agreement. And there's a real question. If he can get that done, can he get Ukraine done? Can he get Republicans and Democrats into the same room to address the shutdown and some of the domestic issues here?
SUSAN PAGE:
Yeah, apparently tougher than the Middle East is what's happening in Capitol Hill behind you. Day 19, no signs that the people even feel – the players even feel pressure to talk to one another. I think it's suiting President Trump. They're firing federal workers. They're targeting programs in the Education Department and elsewhere. I think it's suiting congressional Democrats too, because for once they look like they're standing up to Trump, and that's been something that their bases wanted to do. The one piece of this that may not be working so well, American voters and citizens who are seeing their government, big parts of it, shut down. And I would watch the airports to see if there is more disruption of air travel, because that might be something that get people to really pressure the administration and the Congress to finally talk to one another.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It was so critical to ending the shutdown back in 2019, those delays at airports that were piling up. And Neera, Susan's talking about the frustration amongst voters. We saw a lot of it on display for a range of reasons on Saturday. The No Kings protests where you had, according to organizers, millions of people turn out. I guess the question is what will it amount to? Could it amount to enthusiasm at the ballot box for Democrats in the midterms?
NEERA TANDEN:
Absolutely. I mean, first of all, these protests were larger in scale than we saw in Trump's first term and even larger in scale than just a few weeks ago – few months ago. We also see that they're around the country. They're in Boise, Idaho. They're in Alabama. They're not just in the big cities, but obviously in the big cities they are very large scale. And I think they are a reaction to what people perceive as the extreme actions of this administration, the kind of government overreach, targeting of citizens, et cetera. And so I think it really does demonstrate, though, that Democrats, the base, want Democratic leaders to be standing up. And what I think is interesting about the shutdown – so I was in the White House on the other side of this, and what's fascinating to me is actually the president is taking pressure off the table by paying the troops, by paying certain groups. The troops – paying the troops is one of the biggest pressures on Congress on both sides. He's taking it off and I think that's because he knows, and he's also not attacking Democrats every day, not doing events every day. I think he knows the more he talks about it, the more he's identified with it. Because people know that he's wanted to shut down the government for months.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Sara, pick up on that point and President Trump in years past, when he wasn't in office, has said, "It's up to the president to end the shutdown." Do you anticipate a change in strategy? And what do you make of what Neera's saying?
SARA FAGEN:
Well, I think it probably doesn't get solved until he fully engages. But, you know, I think one of the interesting things about this shutdown is that it's the third news story of the day. I mean, you've got all these things happening on the world stage, so the news isn't as focused on it. The country isn't as focused on it. But I think a couple other reasons why we see Republicans doing better than you would expect an incumbent party in this debate. And one of the things that is like a truism in politics is that every couple years Democrats go out and they talk about health care and they say, "If you elect Republicans your health care costs are going to go up." And that is now what we see happening in this shutdown debate. And after six years plus with these attacks, what do people see? They see their premiums going up every year. They see their deductibles going up. They see their copays going up. It doesn't ring true anymore. And so I do think this is a little bit like, you know, like crying wolf. And so I think the public doesn't trust the Democratic Party on this issue the way they did, you know, over the past decade.
NEERA TANDEN:
I guess I would disagree with that. When you look at every poll, Democrats are more trusted on the issue according to Kaiser Family Foundation, Republican support actually extending the premium tax credits. So I actually do think this is working. I mean, essentially, Republicans still, more people look at them as responsible for this shutdown when they claim it's not them at all.
SARA FAGEN:
But in a debate – in a debate between funding the military and funding an expansion on Obamacare, which is really an expansion during the COVID era, we're not taking Obamacare away, it's just an expansion of it. You know, Republicans are going to fair okay in that debate.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You know, looming over all of this is this question about executive authority. And Carol, on that we talk about a couple of things that we've witnessed this week. The third of President Trump's rivals being indicted and also this big debate which I just had with Senators Kaine and Rand Paul about these strikes against these suspected Venezuela drug boats. They say it's not legal.
CAROL LEE:
Yeah, there is consternation in Congress about this. Senator Rand Paul is very vocal about it, but privately there's a lot more. NBC reported this week that lawmakers, Republicans and Democrats, are concerned about the lack of information that they're getting from the administration about this. They've asked for, for instance, raw video of these attacks. They haven't gotten that. They've said that there, in private, they press about the legality and the legal justifications about this, the intelligence behind it. And they're not getting full answers. Or at least they're not satisfactory. The administration says, "You know, look, we're keeping everybody informed about this." But this is going to escalate. Those concerns are probably also only going to escalate. You have the president talking about CIA operations in Venezuela and potentially land strikes in Venezuela and possibly Mexico. And so that's only going to amp this up.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I think the word you used "escalate" is just so critical. The fact that he acknowledged, Susan, and that, yes, he had authorized this covert CIA operation was just extraordinary. And it does come as he was standing in the Oval Office flanked by his attorney general, his FBI director, calling for some of his political enemies to be targeted. And just this week, as I just mentioned, his third political rival indicted, John Bolton, of course, coming on the heels of James Comey, Letitia James. This is a little bit different, though. How do you see it unfolding?
SUSAN PAGE:
It does seem like a pattern. And we have seen a kind of retribution tour by the Trump Justice Department against the people who investigate him – investigated him. But I do think that John Bolton looks a little different. His investigation was started during the Biden administration. It was signed off on by a career prosecutor, not only by Trump loyalists he had installed. And the indictment is pretty detailed. It makes it – you know, the allegations, if true, would be serious ones. And I think mystifying, why someone as experienced as John Bolton in national security matters, would've engaged in this behavior if it turns out to be true.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just a few of the stories we're going to continue to track so closely. And thank you for great conversation. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
