KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: paying the price. The longest government shutdown in history ends, but Democrats come up empty handed in their fight for health care affordability, revealing a divide in the party.
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ:
My concern is that the lesson that they're learning is that Democrats are weak.
SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN:
This was the only deal on the table
KRISTEN WELKER:
Was the 43-day standoff worth it?
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
They didn't achieve anything with this at all.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
You should not forget this when we come up to midterms.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Plus: records release. Congress gets ready to vote on a bipartisan effort to force the release of the Epstein files as new emails from the convicted sex offender emerge mentioning Donald Trump.
KAROLINE LEAVITT:
These emails prove absolutely nothing other than the fact that President Trump did nothing wrong.
REP. THOMAS MASSIE:
This Epstein vote, the record, is going to last longer than Trump’s presidency.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will republicans vote to block the release? And: Breakup. President Trump turns against one of his biggest supporters. Is the MAGA movement fracturing?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
MAGA was my idea. MAGA was nobody else's idea. I know what MAGA wants better than anybody else and MAGA wants to see our country thrive.
KRISTEN WELKER:
My guests this morning Democratic senator Tim Kaine of Virginia, Republican senator John Barrasso of Wyoming and Democratic congressman Ro Khanna of California. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Chief White House Correspondent Peter Alexander, Leigh Ann Caldwell, Chief Washington Correspondent for Puck, Jamelle Bouie, opinion columnist for The New York Times, and Lanhee Chen, a fellow at the Hoover Institution. Welcome to Sunday, It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. With the longest government shutdown in history now over, Democrats and Republicans are grappling with the fallout. Eight senators in the Democratic caucus voted with Republicans to reopen the government without the extension of those Obamacare tax credits that were at the center of the shutdown fight, with insurance premiums for millions of Americans set to increase next year if those subsidies aren’t extended. Meanwhile, a bipartisan bill to release the Epstein files has garnered enough support to force a vote on the floor of the house, which is scheduled for this week, causing a major rift between president trump and one of his long-time allies, congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, who is pushing for the release of the files. Plus: the president now ordering the Department of Justice to investigate Democrats with alleged ties to the deceased sex offender. And against this backdrop, a new batch of emails from Epstein's estate has raised new questions about Mr. Trump's relationship with the former financier.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Jeffrey Epstein and I had a very bad relationship for many years, but he also saw strength because I was president, so he dictated a couple of memos to himself. Give me a break.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia. Senator Kaine, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Glad to be with you, Kristen, thanks.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it's wonderful to have you back. Let's talk about the government reopening. You were, of course, one of eight Democrats in your caucus to vote to reopen the government in exchange for a vote on extending Obamacare subsidies. But here's what you told me last month, Senator, about taking that kind of a deal. Take a look.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Offering a vote in the Senate without a commitment that it would pass, without a commitment that the House would even take it up, is an empty offer.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And yet, Senator, that's exactly what you voted for. So what changed in just four short weeks?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Well, Kristen, actually I didn't vote for just that. We got a couple of other key wins for the American people that led me to switch my no vote to yes. So we got full-year funding for the SNAP program that President Trump and the Republicans have been trying to gut, robust funding to protect 45 million Americans who rely on SNAP and full-year funding for some other important priorities like the veterans’ administration. And then when I joined the negotiation, really just 48 hours before it came to a head, I was able to negotiate with Republican colleagues and the White House key protections for federal employees. Everybody who's furloughed comes back with back pay. All the folks that President Trump fired since October 1 come back with back pay. And most importantly, a guarantee of no mass firings, no RIFs going forward. So those two items together with the guarantee of a vote on health care, on a proposal that the Democrats put on the table. We didn't have any of that on October 1. We had that by last Sunday. And that's why I switched my no vote to yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and Senator, of course, Mark Warner who also represents Virginians voted no. Why do you think he saw this fight so differently?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
I don't want to put words in anybody else's mouth. But, I mean, here – it was an assessment of what Republicans would do. You know, today is – there's going to be a lot of good football games today. And every team goes in with a game plan to start. But if the game plan isn't producing what you want at halftime, the coach goes in and says, "We're going to make some adjustments." Forty days in, the Republicans were saying, "We know we need to talk about health care, but we will not engage on health care until government is reopened." Now, it's fair to test somebody's red lines. And we tested them over and over again in October. And they didn't budge from that. So frankly, I viewed the situation last weekend as we had no path, none, to a health care fix until we reopened government. Now we have a path, not a guarantee. But we at least have a path. And Democrats need to do all we can to put the best proposal on the table within a month and then force everyone, Democrats and Republicans, to declare whether they're going to stand on the side of the American public and reduce health care costs.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Senator, as you know, you and the other Democrats who did vote to reopen the government are taking some heat from some of your Democratic colleagues including Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Here's how she described the lessons that she thinks Republicans learned from all of this.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ:
My concern is that the lesson that they're learning is that Democrats are weak, and that next time, you just need to hurt working people and working Americans more to get them to fold. And I don't want them to learn that lesson.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, what do you say to that argument that Democrats projected weakness here?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
So two-fold: I have 320,000 federal employees in Virginia, and together with their families, that's probably 700,000 dependents. Getting them all back to work with two paychecks that they've missed restored, with protections against future firings, you know, some folks like AOC may think that's nothing. Virginians think it's an awful lot. And second, if the goal was to try to get health care front and center, she was not at the table with the Republicans in the Senate. And so maybe she thinks that the Republicans would have caved. Would it have been another week of SNAP recipients losing their SNAP benefits, another month of air traffic or air travelers enduring chaos and even danger, another two months of federal employees losing their paychecks? I was at the table with the Republican senators, and I knew if we wanted to get to the health care discussion, we had to open up government. And that was a vantage point I had that a lot of folks who were lobbing criticism didn't. I'm getting great feedback from Virginians and those are the eight and a half million people that I represent.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And yet, Senator, you had said the goal was to get a vote, to hold a vote on extending those health care subsidies. That wasn't a part of the final deal. Polls show that more people are actually blaming Americans in this battle. Do you believe that Democrats lost any leverage that you might have against Republicans moving forward for the next fight?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
So Kristen, what I was saying during the whole month of October is, for me, Tim Kaine, I'm not speaking for anybody else, I didn't need all the I's dotted and T's crossed on health care. But what I needed was a moratorium on mischief so that the president couldn't continue to abuse federal employees and congressionally-funded programs. So I actually achieved what I had put on the table really beginning on October 1 with the federal protections that I gained. And I also moved us to a path forward on health care where there was none. Would I have liked to get the full health care issue fixed? Absolutely and I'm very focused on working with all Democrats to put a good proposal on the table. But I fully believe that had we not reopened government, there was no path forward to do what we all want to do. And now there is that path forward. And we have to, you know, do our very, very best to make it mean something.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So the Senate is expected to vote on extending health care subsidies, and yet House Speaker Mike Johnson has not committed to putting a bill on the floor. What, if any, assurances do you have from House Republicans that they will hold a vote on extending these Obamacare subsidies?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Kristen, so here's my experience based on 13 years in the Senate. If we do something in the Senate that gains bipartisan support, and that's what we need to do – it can't just be a Democratic messaging document. Many Republicans in the House and Senate have said, "We know we need to fix this. The reconciliation bill is responsible for jacking up people's health care costs. And we don't fix it, we're going to face an angry electorate next November." So if we come up with a good bipartisan proposal that's able to pass the House. You're right, the Speaker's given no guarantees. But with a number of Republican House members, including from my own state, who have said, "We've got to fix this," it would be political malpractice of the highest order for the House to not take up a bipartisan bill coming out of the Senate. And if they don't take it up, I'll give you a prediction. The November 2026 elections are going to look a whole lot worse for Republicans than the November 2025 elections did when we just swept Virginia in a historic way and won big races in New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Georgia, California, all over the country. Americans will see who's standing and who's standing against them on affordability of health care. That will be clarifying. And I think the fact of that is the window that we have of being able to find a solution.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Senator, looking to the future, if Democrats cannot get an agreement on Obamacare subsidies, do you rule out shutting down the government again in January?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Don't ask me to assume failure on the effort that we're undertaking. I think we can – we ought to plan for success and then adjust if we don't get it. As you point out, the continuing resolution goes to January 31. We're guaranteed a health care vote in December. So we'll have a chance to put our best foot forward, let the American public see. And Kristen, the public will see this debate on health care without it being drowned out by air traffic delays, SNAP recipients losing benefits, federal employees losing their paychecks for the third or fourth time. It would have been hard to grab everybody's attention on the health care issue if all of the other consequences of shutdown were drowning it out. Now the government is open and now the American public will watch this health care debate and we’ll see which side are you on.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Look, I don't hear you ruling it out, Senator, just for the record. I do want to move on though because we're almost out of time –
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Yep.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– I want to take a big picture look at the Democratic Party. More than a dozen House members are calling for Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer to step down, including my next guest, Congressman Ro Khanna. Senator, given this, given that so many Democrats are calling for Leader Schumer to step aside, can he be an effective leader?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Yes. Chuck has been an effective leader. Remember when Chuck was majority leader during the Biden administration, he produced a string of legislative wins with a bare majority, nearly unparalleled in recent history. Infrastructure, the American Rescue Plan, the Inflation Reduction Act, fixing the electoral college, first gun safety bill in 25 years and important veterans' legislation. Being the minority leader is tough. In the Senate we have some tools in minority, but not many. We don't control what's on the floor. And you know if you're dealing with senators, and Kristen you do, it's not exactly like senators just get in line and follow the leader. So I don't tell Ro Khanna or AOC or anybody else who you should pick as your House leader because I got a full-time job being a senator. I don't need to freelance opinions about House leadership. They should focus on their own leadership and let senators do what we need to do to keep this country moving forward.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, just very quickly, did Leader Schumer give you his blessing to end the shutdown?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
No, he did not. He voted --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Tacit or otherwise --
SEN. TIM KAINE:
– the other way than I did --
KRISTEN WELKER:
I understand that.
SEN. TIM KAINE:
But I --
KRISTEN WELKER:
But did he --
SEN. TIM KAINE:
But I --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Did he give you his tacit blessing?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Absolutely not. But Chuck and I had a really interesting argument about an unrelated topic a couple of years ago where I was going a different direction than he was on something. And he was really, really pushing me. And I said, "Chuck, listen, my goal with you is always to inform you. But I don't need a permission slip from you because eight and a half million Virginians gave me that permission slip in November of 2024." He voted the other way. He would have preferred that I not voted the way that I did. But he knows that U.S. senators are going to do what's in the interest of their constituents. And my 320,000 federal workers and their families are a powerful, powerful part of who I represent. And when I could get important protections for them after a year of being kicked around by Donald Trump, I said, "I'm ready to sign on."
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, Senator Tim Kaine, thank you so much for joining us, starting us off this morning. We really appreciate it.
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Have a great rest of the day. Thanks.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You too. When we come back, Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. And joining me now is Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California. Congressman Khanna, welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. RO KHANNA:
It's a pleasure to be on.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's fantastic to have you here in person. We really appreciate it. Let's start and pick up on my conversation with Senator Kaine. You heard him there arguing he believes Democrats did get some concessions. He also believes there was a near-zero chance that Republicans were going to come to the table and actually vote on extending Obamacare subsidies. Congressman, how did you see this fight ending, given that so many people were suffering?
REP. RO KHANNA:
Well, I like Senator Kaine. He has served honorably and people can come to this with a difference of opinion and judgment. For me, this was a moral issue. I think about the taxi driver in Arizona who has cancer whose premium is going to go up literally from $44 a month to $2,600 a month. Deductible is going to go up from $800 to $6,000. His son came charging at me at the airport, saying, "This could be a death sentence for my father." I didn't do this just to make health care an issue. I wanted relief for people like them. And we could have done that. Kevin Kiley, Michael Lawler have floated bills to say, "Let's extend the tax credits for one year." We could have negotiated on eligibility. We didn't pursue any of those avenues. They didn't come, Senator Kaine or others, to the House and say, "What are you doing? What is Sam Liccardo doing, a Democrat working with Republicans, to try to come to a compromise?"
KRISTEN WELKER:
But to the crux of this question – how do you actually get this resolved – there are people actively suffering right now. The lines at food banks were getting longer. Food assistance programs were in limbo. And I guess the question is how long were you prepared to let that suffering go on, Congressman?
REP. RO KHANNA:
Well, it's cruel, as Representative Ocasio-Cortez said. I mean, this administration, Donald Trump, was giving $20 billion in a currency swap to a corrupt leader in Argentina instead of $9 billion which would have funded SNAP the whole time. And some of us were saying we would have voted for Republican Josh Hawley's bill to extend SNAP benefits if Speaker Johnson just opened up the House. But you can't have a precedent where the president says he's going to do cruel things to the American people unless the Democrats fold. This was a moral moment. We can pay for SNAP in this country, and we can extend health care tax credits. We're the richest country in the world. My district has $18 trillion and people are saying, "What is going on? With all this tech wealth we can't feed people and give people health care?"
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about your call for Senator Schumer to step down. Some Democrats are rushing to his defense. You just heard Senator Kaine defend him. Senator Jeanne Shaheen also defended him. Here's what she had to say.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN:
They need to train their fire on the people who are responsible. That's President Donald Trump, it's Speaker Johnson, and it's the Republicans who have blocked every attempt to get health care. We need to be working together.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Why do you think Leader Schumer is to blame, given that Republicans have control, as Jeanne Shaheen is saying, of the White House and both chambers of Congress.
REP. RO KHANNA:
Well, there's something that I agree with both of these senators. Senator Kaine said that Senator Schumer was terrific under President Biden. And he was. I worked with him on the CHIPS and Science Act. That would not have passed if it weren't for Senator Schumer's leadership. Same with the infrastructure bill and IRA. And Senator Shaheen is right that the biggest culprit is Donald Trump and Mike Johnson. The question is what is the future of Democratic leadership – who is going to be effective? And most Democrats around the country just don't think that person is Chuck Schumer. I mean, he doesn't inspire confidence. He's not bold. He's out of touch with the grassroots. He's someone who cheer-led us into the war in Iraq. He doesn't have the moral clarity on Gaza. He couldn't say Mamdani's name. And this was the final straw where he was not strong on fighting for health care.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So who is the person who you think should lead Democrats into the future in the Senate? Who's at the top of that list for you, Congressman?
REP. RO KHANNA:
Well, Senator Kaine's already given me a hard time for just saying that the minority leader should be someone different. I think if I endorsed someone it would probably hurt them more than help them. But we have dynamic young, new leaders –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Who are some of the top names –
REP. RO KHANNA:
Chris Murphy is a top leader. Cory Booker is a dynamic leader. Brian Schatz is a dynamic leader. I mean, Elizabeth Warren is someone whose ideology I appreciate. There are a lot of great talent – and really, when you think about it, just from a common sense test, do you think Democrats around the country think that Chuck Schumer should be the face of the future of the Democratic Party? Of course not. And I just said out loud what people are thinking in their own private thoughts. You know what the Democrats need to do? We need be more independent and truth-telling in this country and bold and not rest on niceties.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, I want to turn to the other big issue that you have been focused on, pushing for the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files. Your joint bill with Thomas Massie is going to come to a vote on the House floor. It's expected to this week. Do you think you have enough votes for it to pass?
REP. RO KHANNA:
We do, and there's nothing I have been prouder of or more meaningful than this work. The credit goes to the survivors. They're going to be at the Capitol on Tuesday in a press conference Massie, myself, and Representative Greene are doing. This was disgusting. Epstein had set up a rape island where rich and powerful men were abusing young girls with impunity. And there are thousands of victims, and rich and powerful men still have buildings named after them, scholarships named after them. This is not partisan. They all need to be held accountable. The Epstein class needs to go.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How many Republicans are going to join you? Could you have a veto-proof majority?
REP. RO KHANNA:
Well, I was hoping that and then Donald Trump started to tweet out, saying that he's going to un-endorse people like Marjorie Taylor Greene. So, it's basically Massie and me versus the White House. I mean, they're calling members to the Situation Room. But do you know why Trump is losing his MAGA base on this? The reason he's losing it is he ran saying there's a corrupt governing elite that has shafted you, that, "This Epstein class was this forgotten Americans and I'm going to stand up for forgotten Americans." He's forgotten those forgotten Americans. And we are saying that we are going to stand up for survivors, for America's kids, and we're going to hold this class accountable.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Very quickly, how many Republicans do you think will join you?
REP. RO KHANNA:
I'm hoping for 40-plus.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Look, in response to your effort to push this bill forward, President Trump this week called on the Justice Department to launch an investigation into some of the people who've been named related to Jeffrey Epstein including in these recent emails, Bill Clinton, former Harvard President Larry Summers. Do you support this investigation, Congressman?
REP. RO KHANNA:
Look, I'm all for investigation wherever it leads in terms of whether it's Democrat or Republican, have accountability. My concern is that he is doing this to prevent a release of the files because some people are saying that when you can say there's an active investigation you don't have to release the files. So, what I'm for is transparency. Release the files and then have the accountability for anyone, regardless of their party.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you, this week the Democratic House Oversight Committee, which you're a part of, did release all of these emails from Mr. Epstein. In one of them he said President Trump, quote, "knew about the girls." The president's calling these emails a Democratic hoax. Republicans are saying that Democrats are just cherry-picking these documents. Are Democrats trying to score political points against the president in this fight? Is that a part of it?
REP. RO KHANNA:
No. In fact, on Tuesday what we're going to ask is for the president to meet with these survivors. If you gave me a choice, I'd rather the president reverse course. I'd rather he release all these files. Someone was saying that his numbers would go up. I don't care if he gets the political win. There is a group of rich and powerful men who abused young girls. It's the one thing this country agrees was horrible. I don't think we've had a scandal like this in this country, and what we're asking for is justice for those survivors. So, it's not about Donald Trump. I don't even know how involved Trump was. There are a lot of other people who are involved who have to be held accountable.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You have said this is about justice. This is about transparency. And yet I want to play something that you said earlier this week, get your reaction on the other side.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REP. RO KHANNA:
I'm hopeful that we may get 40, 50 Republicans voting with the Democrats, the first time something like that has happened since Donald Trump walked down the escalator. Some people say this could be the first day of him being a lame duck, the day that bill passes.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
If this is about justice, what does that have to do with making President Trump a lame duck president?
REP. RO KHANNA:
Well, it's because of what Trump has done. I mean, I wish that Donald Trump would prevent that by actually releasing the files. But if he goes down this lane where he is actually calling to un-endorse people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, where he's threatening every Republican in MAGA, saying that if you support the Khanna bill you're not on my side, that he is sowing the seeds for his own lame duck presidency. He's out of touch with his own base. Don't ask me. Just look at Rasmussen, People's Pundit, all these people who were on his side are now saying, "You know, Mr. President, what happened to you? You ran against a corrupt system. You ran for forgotten Americans. You've become part of the swamp that you railed against." And again, my hope is that if he listens today – I know you interview him all the time – that he says, "Okay, I'm going to meet these survivors. I'm going to get behind Massie-Khanna's bill." I really think that's the right thing to do, and it's good for him politically.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, we will track that press conference you're going to be holding this week. Congressman Ro Khanna, thank you so much for joining us.
REP. RO KHANNA:
Thank you, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Great to see you as always. When we come back, Republican Senator John Barrasso, the Senate majority whip, joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. And joining me now is Republican Senate Majority Whip John Barrasso of Wyoming. Senator Barrasso, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
Great to be with you. Thank you, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it's great to have you on, Senator. Let's start off by talking about this battle over health care, Democrats demanding a vote on extending Obamacare subsidies. Will you vote yes to extend Obamacare subsidies, Senator?
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
Well, as Senator Kaine said, they're going to bring the bill to the floor and I’m certainly – I'm going to see what's in that bill. I'm a doctor. I practiced medicine in Wyoming for 24 years, and I've always wanted people to get the care they need from a doctor that they choose at a price they can afford. But Obamacare basically destroyed that possibility. Remember, President Obama promised you could keep your doctor, you could keep your policy, and insurance costs would go down by $2,500 a family. The exact opposite happened. Costs doubled. Insurance companies got very rich because the government kept sending money to national insurance companies to prop up the failures of Obamacare. The subsidy's around 80% of the cost of the insurance. Even The New York Times and Washington Post said Obamacare is pricey. It was never affordable. So there've been all these subsidies. And then a couple of years ago – and this is what this is all about – Joe Biden and the Democrats said, "Prices are going up even higher. We need to put new subsidies on top of the old subsidies during COVID." These are the Biden COVID bonus subsidies. Those are the ones that Democrats set – set to expire this year. That's what the fight is about. If the Democrats bring a bill that actually lowers the cost of care, that's something I think people want to talk about. But I don't expect that to happen. They just want to extend these subsidies, which is just putting another big Band-Aid on a gaping wound that needs major surgery.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you're saying you won't extend them in their current form? I hear you critiquing Obamacare. The Affordable Care Act, Senator, passed 15 years ago. Republicans have been criticizing it, threatening to repeal and replace it ever since, but where is the Republican health care plan 15 years later?
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
Well, as you know, not a single Republican voted for the Obama health care law. We are going to have a meeting of the Finance Committee on Wednesday, again, focusing on health care. I'm on that committee. A number of physicians are also on that committee. I think that we need to make sure people understand the costs and give them choice and give them control. What we've seen is health insurance companies' stocks have gone up 500-1000% since Obamacare became law. We can't continue to subsidize this failure. If people are given the money to make their own decisions and buy what works best for them and for their families, I think that those – the choice, the opportunities are much, much better. Now, on this committee, of course, is Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders. And they want to do one-size-fits-all, government-run health care that they have in Britain right now, which is failing that country. I want to put people in charge of their decisions, not bureaucrats, which is what we've had with Obamacare.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, but what I hear you saying is that there's no plan. There's no bill. President Trump is calling for direct payment to Americans, which would inevitably lead to repealing Obamacare. Just to be very clear, will any plan include repealing Obamacare?
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
We need a plan to lower the cost of health care in America. I know very well what's going on in Wyoming with 40,000 people who are on Obamacare get very high subsidies, over $900 a month –
KRISTEN WELKER:
So do you want to repeal it, Senator? Do you want to repeal it?
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
Their premiums are going up. What matters – I want to make sure we have a health care plan that works for the American people, and Obamacare has failed. We cannot continue just continuing to subsidize a failing plan, which is causing more and more costs and hardship around the country. What the Democrats have offered was $350 billion more dollars to prop up Obamacare, which has failed. And of course they first started the shutdown, which has been a disaster for the country, by demanding more money for health care for illegal immigrants. I mean, that's where they have gone. We need to work to get a health care insurance program that works to lower the cost. And the way you do that is put people in charge to make those decisions. And that's what I've been fighting for.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, as you know, you bring up the shutdown. President Trump was calling on Republicans to get rid of the filibuster. He has continued those calls, Senator, even with the shutdown over. Are you 100% confident that the filibuster will still be intact at the end of President Trump's second term?
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
Well, President Trump makes a compelling argument. I've always supported the filibuster because I view that as a tool that we have as conservatives to prevent Democrats from doing things that I think would be very bad for the country. And they've said what they'd like to do. So I think Democrats would love for Republicans to get rid of the filibuster because the Democrats want to make sure that D.C. and Puerto Rico become states with four new Democrat senators. They want to change voting rules to get rid of voter ID, make it easier for illegal immigrants to vote. We – we know that what they want to do is put four new members on the Supreme Court who don't really follow the Constitution. In my opinion, those things would be disastrous for the country. So I believe that we're going to and I continue to support the filibuster.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But Senator, just to be very clear, would you rule out ending the filibuster, voting to end the filibuster?
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
Well, I support the filibuster, as do I believe a majority of Republicans in the Senate. So I expect it's going to continue to be here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay.
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
President Trump has been very consistent. And I'll tell you, I appreciate his leadership during this shutdown. Because we have – the Democrats have put this country through tremendous pain with this shutdown. And we just heard from your former guest. We'd still be in a shutdown today if it were up to the majority of the Democrats.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay, let me turn to the other big story we are tracking today, which is the big battle over the Epstein files. President Trump has referred to this as a hoax. Do you believe that it's a hoax?
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
Well, let me give you my take on this whole issue, because of course I want accountability. You – you want to make sure there's transparency. You want to make sure that the victims are taken care of. What you're concerned – and I'm concerned – is that if there is information out here about other individuals that need to be prosecuted, they need to be prosecuted. But what I saw Ro Khanna say is they want to make President Trump a lame duck president. This is all about him. I fully believe that had there – had there been something here that the Biden administration could've used to go after President Trump the last four years, they'd have gone after him with double barrels. But this is an administration, the Biden administration, which abused justice. They have gone after eight United States senators, spied on them, went after their phone records, targeted them. So they have abused the laws of the land. And I think they would've gone after President Trump if there was anything there.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay –
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
To me, this Epstein matter, as well as the shutdown, they're trying to get out of the – the pain they've caused the country in the shutdown, and that's why the Democrats want to use this, and they want to make President Trump a lame duck president.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, you take me to my next point, because President Trump this week asked the Justice Department to investigate Jeffrey Epstein's involvement and relationship with some top Democrats. And yet, in July, the Justice Department and the FBI released a memo about the Epstein case that said, quote, "We did not uncover evidence that could predicate an investigation against uncharged third parties." Senator, if there wasn't evidence to justify further investigation in July, why is there evidence now?
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
I'm not sure what evidence is out there. What I do know is that the House is going to vote this week, try to make a decision, and we'll see if they send something to the Senate. And if they do, we'll take a look at that. But we want transparency and accountability. What I also know is that Jeffrey Epstein is a convicted sex offender and he is dead. And President Trump threw him out of Mar-a-Lago 21 years ago. To me, what's going on with the Epstein and what's going on also with – with the shutdown is this is the Democrats trying to appeal to their far-left base and trying to change the topic from a failed shutdown, which hurt many, many Americans, like a lot of people I was with last night at a veterans event in Wyoming where they wanted to talk about the pain each one of them experienced in the shutdown, and Epstein never came up for discussion.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But Senator, very quickly, four months ago the Justice Department said there was nothing to investigate. And then hours after President Trump called for an investigation, Pam Bondi said she was opening an investigation. Is that appropriate, from your perspective?
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
I think there's a lot more important things to talk about right now to get the country back on track, to lower prices for the American people, and that's what we need to do is make life more affordable. The president and the Senate and the House need to be functioning and working on that, not on what's happened to a convicted sex offender who is now dead.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, if the Epstein measure passes the House will it get a vote in the Senate?
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
It'll come to the Senate. We'll take a look at it. If it passes the House, we'll see what it says. We all want accountability and – and transparency. But to me, this is not about truth. It's not about justice. This is about an attempt by the Democrats to make President Trump a lame duck president. And I'm not going to aid and abet them in their efforts to do that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But you don't commit to a vote, Senator? You don't commit to holding a vote if the Epstein measure passes in the House? Just very quickly. We're almost out of time.
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
Well, what I've said and what Senate Leader Thune has said is we'll look at it. We'll look at what's come over. I don't even know that it's going to pass the House. The Senate will make a decision. We'll have a discussion about it and make a decision from there.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, let me ask you about this feud between President Trump and Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene who does support the full release of the Epstein files. Congresswoman Greene has been critical of what she has described as President Trump's fight to get these files released. She says, quote, "Most Americans wish he would fight this hard to help the forgotten men and women of America who are fed up with foreign wars and foreign causes, are going broke trying to feed their families and are losing hope of ever achieving the American dream." Senator, do you believe that President Trump is out of touch with his own MAGA base?
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
No. And I'm not going to get into the issue between the two of those. Oh no, President Trump is fully in tune with where we need to go as a country and getting America back on track. We've had the most successful year, as you can imagine, in terms of reversing the damage done by the Biden administration. The president is fully focused. We passed the working families tax cut bill. I heard about that from ranchers, from coal miners. People all around Wyoming heard about it last night at the veterans event. People that are very happy with the fact that they're going to have more money in their pockets. And what we need to do is make sure that life is affordable for those folks. That's the president's focus. That's the Republican focus. That's where we need to take this country. We need to remove the distractions. The president is totally focused in on getting America –
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right.
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
– back on track. We've had great wins for energy. We've had great wins at the border. He has secured the border and we're on the right path.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, Senator John Barrasso, thank you so much for being here this Sunday. We really appreciate it.
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
Thanks, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, JFK's grandson announces a run for Congress. We look back at the Kennedy dynasty. Our Meet the Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The grandson of John F. Kennedy, Jack Schlossberg, launched a run for Congress this week. He now joins a crowded field looking to succeed New York Democrat Jerry Nadler. Schlossberg has no prior political experience, but a very active social media presence. Back in 1962, Ted Kennedy, brother of the sitting president and the attorney general, was himself weighing a run for the Senate. He joined Meet the Press and talked about the growing political footprint of his family.
[BEGIN TAPE]
LAWRENCE SPIVAK:
People say there are two Kennedys in important political offices now, and that a third would be one too many. What's your answer to that?
EDWARD M. KENNEDY:
Mr. Spivak, I’m not – if I do announce for the Senate I will not be running as the Kennedy candidate, but I would hope as the Democratic candidate. And I would be relying upon the judgments of the people in Massachusetts to make a determination whether they thought that I could be effective in representing them in the capacity in which I would run for political office in Massachusetts.
RICHARD CLURMAN:
There is bound to be raised in this campaign the issue of the Kennedy dynasty in American politics. I wonder if you could tell us how you feel about the presence of a family such as yours occupying that number of key positions in American life.
EDWARD M. KENNEDY:
Mr. Clurman, if you're talking about too many Kennedys you should've talked to my mother and father at the time when they were getting started.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, President Trump breaks up with one of his biggest supporters. Is the MAGA base fracturing? The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here: NBC News Chief White House Correspondent Peter Alexander; Leigh Ann Caldwell, Chief Washington Correspondent for Puck; New York Times columnist Jamelle Bouie; and Lanhee Chen, a fellow at the Hoover Institution. Thanks to all of you for being here after a very big week of headlines. Peter, I want to start with you where I left off with Senator Barrasso, which is this breakup that we're seeing between President Trump and Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene. She's upset with him for a range of different issues, not just Jeffrey Epstein – affordability, health care, his focus on foreign wars. Do you see this as a feud with one person or does it represent a bigger fracture in the MAGA space?
PETER ALEXANDER:
Well, to be clear, I think this is more about issues than it is individuals, although she has her own personal issues with President Trump here. Six months ago, this would've been unfathomable. She is one of the most vocal allies of the president as part of the MAGA movement. She's said that he personally inspired her to run over the course of it. But I think in the last six months, or certainly in the last several weeks, we have seen cracks within MAGA. And there's now this division where it’s – there is not the unity there once was. Where specifically you see MAGA versus, I think, this America-first wing. Some people specifically on that topic in particular. Think about the places where Marjorie Taylor Greene has differed from the president that have resonated: First, get rid of the focus on foreign policy, right?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
PETER ALEXANDER:
The topic of Israel has been so divisive for that movement. Venezuela, $20 billion being sent to Argentina. They say the focus needs –she says the focus needs to be on domestic issues. She told our colleagues at NBC News, "It's not America first. It's America only. Hard core.” And the thing that was striking to me as it relates to Epstein, which is really what triggered all this, was Ro Khanna earlier on the broadcast saying, "Just the fact that Donald Trump is going after MTG says that he could go after anybody. Nobody's safe." Khanna said he's afraid that some Republicans are going to peel back because of that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That was the headline I think for me too, Peter. Leigh Ann you heard that. I mean, what do you make of this moment where President Trump is pressuring people not to vote for the Epstein measure? He's also calling for an investigation into just Democrats. How do you see this playing out on the Hill amongst his Republican allies?
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
It's going to be fascinating. The vote's Tuesday. When I was talking to Republicans yesterday and on Friday, I was told that dozens of Republicans were expected to vote for this, three to four dozen. But they also expected Donald Trump to get involved and try to peel those Republicans off and to reduce the numbers of people. But this is the first real time that Republicans are splitting with the president during this term. They have been so united – despite a couple outliers – with him. And Donald Trump might not be able to keep the party together like he has been so successful at up until this point.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Lanhee, it really is the crux of what we're witnessing. The first time that we're starting to see this fracturing. And it goes to what President Trump said, which is he said, "I came up with MAGA. I get to decide what MAGA means, what it represents, and what we're fighting for." But is that still true? Or is it the people who are looking towards the future, 2026 and 2028, who get to decide now?
LANHEE CHEN:
I think for now it's absolutely true. Look, the concept of MAGA did not exist before Donald Trump. The policy elements, the people, all of that may have existed. But what Donald Trump did was to coalesce it into a political movement. The fight that we're seeing is about the MAGA of tomorrow. It is the question of where the movement goes probably after Donald Trump. And I think there are very real policy disagreements, whether it's on foreign policy. Immigration – we've seen a fissure on H-1B, high-skilled labor. Those issues we've seen. Some questions around tax policy and the corporatist wing versus the populist wing. The MAGA of tomorrow, that's where this fight is going. But Donald Trump is still the leader of the MAGA movement. He will be until he leaves office. And any suggestion to the contrary is not fitting of reality.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jamelle, speaking of the leader and the future of the party, you focused your column this week on Vice President JD Vance. I mean, what are you watching for as MAGA evolves?
JAMELLE BOUIE:
I'm watching to see where Vance aligns himself. He clearly wants to be the – the next-generation MAGA leader, and he seems to be vacillating between, you might say, traditional MAGA, which seems insane when I say it out loud, and the groypers, this group of far-right extremists, younger conservatives , who are making at this moment a bid for leadership within the movement. I would say additionally that one way to look at this as well is that President Trump has had a very bad month. The Republican Party has gotten much of the blame for the shutdown. His party suffered big losses in these elections. His approval rating – last I saw AP poll is 36%. This to me looks like a wounded animal lashing out in the corner, not so much someone who is trying to establish and maintain and protect their strength.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. The Republicans, Peter, fighting amongst themselves. But we saw the Democrats this morning with big divides as well. And I think the question is: can they unify around this battle over health care? Or are they going to be splintered heading into the midterms? Because it seemed like they'd found their argument on affordability, something that President Trump White House officials saying, "We need to shift and focus on potentially more."
PETER ALEXANDER:
Marjorie Taylor Greene herself talked about the issue of health care premiums, right? I think the issue that the White House, from my perspective, might be that the White House right now – that I think has been striking is the way that they have sort of changed their view as it relates to the topic of affordability after the losses in Virginia and New Jersey, where cost of living seemed to be very central to all of this. You're seeing some new policy ideas, some new messaging in particular here. As NBC News reported, two thirds of voters right now say that President Trump has not sort of met their expectations in how he has handled the economy and cost of living right now. He ended this week by saying, "I'm never satisfied on these topics," which seemed a bit more conciliatory. But the thing that we should note that happened I think on Friday was critical, which is the president exempted some key food products as it relates to tariffs: coffee, bananas, tomatoes. The point of tariffs, as the president said, was it's going to make prices better for Americans. By rolling those back is an acknowledgment that that's simply not the case.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jamelle, on this issue of Democrats being divided as President Trump tries to figure out what his message is going to be moving forward, you saw Congressman Khanna saying, "I want Democrats to be fighting harder for these pocketbook issues." Did Democrats win anything in this fight, do you think?
JAMELLE BOUIE:
I think substantively it doesn't look like Democrats won much in the shutdown fight, but I think politically they won a great deal. This exact point: the president having to back off on some of his tariffs, sort of adopting this affordability language. The – the White House and the president clearly worried about the traction Democrats have made focusing on cost of living. This I think is a political victory. And looking ahead beyond this year, you have to ask yourself, "How much can the White House actually recover? How much can it really shift gears?" And that's the big open question. If they can't, I think it leaves Democrats a powerful opening going into the midterms.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, they do. And the question is this battle's going to revolve around health care, Lanhee, and Senator Barrasso said they're going to meet about it. Is this a potential weakness that there's still not a plan on health care? How could it play in this broader discussion of affordability?
LANHEE CHEN:
I think – I think affordability's going to be the key issue going into the midterm elections. We've seen that in poll after poll. And generally speaking in American elections, the economy tends to be the top issue. But for health care to be a problem for Republicans, it's been a vexing problem, I think, for the last 15 years. The reality is Democrats opened the door. Republicans need to walk through it. They need to present some ideas that actually move this discussion forward. By the way, extending the ACA-enhanced subsidies would not have made affordability better in the long run. So Republicans do have this opportunity now to present some ideas and actually get on the front foot on this issue.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Leigh Ann, Senator Barrasso wouldn't even commit to holding a vote on the health care subsidies.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
No. And that's going to be a big problem for Democrats. And also what Democrats did win in this, again, no policy subscriptions, but they forced Republicans to have to talk about health care, an issue that is not good for Republicans. A Republican told me at the beginning of the shutdown, "We just have to make sure that we don't make this an argument about health care." And this is exactly where they're at, and Democrats are – feel like they're in a good place.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, we'll watch and see how it all unfolds this week and in the coming weeks. Thanks, guys, for a great conversation. Really appreciate it. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
