KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: Fire and ice. A federal immigration officer shoots and kills a 37-year-old mother in Minneapolis, triggering outrage, protests and new questions about the Trump administration’s immigration enforcement policies.
SEC. KRISTI NOEM:
It was an act of domestic terrorism.
VICE PRES. JD VANCE:
I can believe that her death is a tragedy while also recognizing that it's a tragedy of her own making.
MAYOR JACOB FREY:
To ICE – get the f*** out of Minneapolis.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I’ll talk to White House Border Czar Tom Homan and Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey. Plus: Crude power. President Trump plans to take full control of Venezuela's oil sales for years to come.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We are taking billions and billions of dollars worth of oil.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
This is an insane plan. They are talking about stealing the Venezuelan oil at gunpoint.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I’ll talk to Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. And: Midterm warning. President Trump predicts he will be impeached if Republicans do not win in the midterms.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
You’ve got to win the midterms because if we don't win the midterms, it’s just going to be – I mean, they'll find a reason to impeach me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News White House Correspondent Monica Alba; Jonathan Martin of Politico; Jamelle Bouie, opinion columnist for The New York Times; and Stephen Hayes, editor of The Dispatch. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. Protests are growing across the country over President Donald Trump's hardline deportation policies. In Minneapolis this week, 37-year-old Renee Nicole Good, an American citizen and mother of three, was shot and killed in her vehicle by an ICE officer, caught on video from multiple angles, including from the officer who pulled the trigger. We do want to warn you: this video is disturbing.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The Trump administration is asserting the officer acted in self defense, while Minnesota officials strongly rebuke those claims, accusing ICE of excessive force.
[START TAPE]
MAYOR JACOB FREY:
They are already trying to spin this as an action of self-defense. Having seen the video myself, I want to tell everybody directly that is [BLEEP].
VICE PRES. JD VANCE:
I'm not saying that funding some of this stuff justifies capital punishment. Nobody would suggest that. The reason this woman is dead is because she tried to ram somebody with her car, and that guy acted in self-defense. That is why she lost her life, and that is the tragedy.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is White House Border Czar Tom Homan, who was the acting ICE director in President Trump's first term. Mr. Homan, welcome to Meet the Press.
TOM HOMAN:
Thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here. So the world has now seen that video, the perspective from the officer. I wonder, Mr. Homan, what do you see in that video?
TOM HOMAN:
Look, it's tragic. And I've said, from March, if the hateful rhetoric doesn't decline, there's going to be bloodshed. I've seen this movie before. And unfortunately, I was right. And there's been a lot of bloodshed. But look, you know, you've got to put yourself in the mind of the officer, right? You're in a city where there's protest, interference, impediment, like these two ladies were doing before this instance occurred. You're in a city where law enforcement response is sporadic, at best. You got threats up over 1,300%, actual assault on ICE officers. You got a woman behind the wheel of a 4,000-pound vehicle, revving her engine, going towards you. I truly believe this officer, in his mind, though his life was in danger, which allows him to use lethal force. Now, I'll say this. Let the investigation play out, right? There's a lot of video. We probably haven't seen it. The FBI has it. We don't. Where's the forensics and the ballistics? That hasn't been outreached. How about the officer's statements, his own statements? So we need to let this play out. But while we're doing that, we've got to stop the hateful rhetoric. Saying this officer is a murderer is dangerous. It's just ridiculous. And it's just going to infuriate people more, which means there's going to be more incidents like this because the hateful rhetoric is not only continuing, now has tripled down and doubled down.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Homan, let me ask you, because you have yet again, here today, said you want the investigation to play out. This is something you've said in the immediate aftermath of this shooting. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem called this a, quote, "Act of domestic terrorism." President Trump said Renee Good, quote, "Violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer." How can the public trust the investigation when there has already been this judgment passed down by the president and some of his top officials?
TOM HOMAN:
Look, we've all seen the video. And, again, no one knows what's in that officer's mind. You don't. I don't. No one does. But we're going to let the investigation play out. The bottom line is, "Why are you even there?" Why are we in Minneapolis? Because it's a sanctuary city, a sanctuary state. Bill Melugin from Fox News just bought a list of, like, 18 people, dangerous, worst, the worst that ICE had taken in custody. Many of them, child sodomy, child rape. ICE is out, looking for dangerous people. It's not okay to impede and interfere with an officer. Would it be okay, if a citizen impeded and interfered with the U.S. Marshal arresting a fugitive? No. Is it okay, if they stood before the FBI when they've arrested a terrorist? No. These are targeted enforcement operations. They're arresting bad people. And it’s illegal. Let's remember, what she did was a crime. It's illegal to interfere and impede on ICE law enforcement officers. That's why we're there.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And yet, what Minneapolis officials are arguing is that the way that ICE officials are carrying out their duties may be adding to the tension. Secretary Noem labeled this an act of domestic terrorism. What's the evidence for that allegation, Mr. Homan?
TOM HOMAN:
Bottom line is, again, why are we in Minneapolis? If they didn't have the sanctuary policies they had--
KRISTEN WELKER:
But do you have evidence that she's a domestic terrorist?
TOM HOMAN:
No. Let me finish this because this is important. Less officers in a community, if we were in the jail. Bottom line, we are forced into the community because the governor of that state and the mayor support sanctuary cities, where child rapists are released back into the community. They create a huge public safety trap. So if you want less officers in the street, then let us in the jail.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And I'm going to talk to Mayor Frey about the sanctuary city policies there. But I want to stay on this question, which is about the way in which the woman who was shot and killed is being labeled as a domestic terrorist. Just to be clear, is anyone who protests ICE a domestic terrorist in the eyes of the administration?
TOM HOMAN:
I can't say that. You know, it's a case-by-case basis. But, you know, if you look up the definition of terrorism, is there violence, is there a threat of violence based on an ideology that wants to change the way the government does what we do? Look on the definition of terrorism.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But was Secretary Noem correct to label her a domestic terrorist, Mr. Homan?
TOM HOMAN:
Look. We don’t know – I don't know what Secretary Noem knows and what I know. I can tell you what they did is illegal. And if you look up this definition of terrorism, it could fall within that definition, if you look up the definition of terrorism.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But you don't have evidence.
TOM HOMAN:
Pardon?
KRISTEN WELKER:
You don't have evidence that she's a domestic terrorist.
TOM HOMAN:
I don't know what the secretary has that I don't. I'm not going to judge what the secretary says, but if you look up the definition of terrorism, it certainly can fall within that. So I think we all have got to agree there's no reason for this lady to do what she did. There's no reason to be there. If you want to protest, protest. But don't actively impede and interfere. And certainly, don't drive a 4,000-pound vehicle toward an officer.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about the broader investigation because that's part of what the investigation is trying to unpack, what exactly happened in the moments leading up to the incident and afterwards. State and local officials are currently being excluded from the federal investigation. The Hennepin County attorney said this on Friday. I want to get your reaction on the other side.
[START TAPE]
HENNEPIN COUNTY ATTORNEY MARY MORIARTY:
I cannot overstate the importance of a local investment or, at least, access to the federal investigation by the BCA. Without it, we will not have the ability to be transparent with our community about the results of the expectation or, as I said, any decision that might come of the review.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Homan, I've been talking to law enforcement experts who say they have never heard of state and local officials being cut out of a federal investigation. How can the public trust the results of this investigation, if it doesn't include state and local officials, the people who were there on the ground?
TOM HOMAN:
Well, first of all, this is a federal crime.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But it happened in Minneapolis.
TOM HOMAN:
It's a federal crime and the jurisdiction clearly falls within the FBI. I've been doing this, since 1984. When a federal officer is involved with a shooting, the investigation goes to the FBI. It's been that way, forever. And where were all these people? It shocks me. They have the subpoenas now. Then, they step aside and let child rapists be released from jails back in the community.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But it's one thing to have the FBI--
TOM HOMAN:
They're complicit, why we're in the position we are today.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But--
TOM HOMAN:
They're complicit from their stance on open borders for four years. Where millions of people were released in this country, many of them public safety threats and national security threats. They are silent. They were silent when half a million children were trafficked in this country. And they lost track of 300,000 of them.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What you're describing though, it's one thing for the FBI to take the lead in an investigation. Certainly, that is something that we are used to seeing. But for state and local officials to be cut out, altogether, are you comfortable with that? Doesn't that undercut the transparency, the sense of faith in the investigation in the eyes of the public?
TOM HOMAN:
First of all, that's a question for the FBI. I've never worked at the DOJ. But listen, I trust that the FBI will do a thorough investigation. They're professionals. So let them do the investigation. Let's see the investigation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Should the autopsy be made public?
TOM HOMAN:
That's a question for the FBI.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay.
TOM HOMAN:
But I certainly will tell you that the FBI will be part of the investigation. Like I said earlier, look at the ballistics, and look at forensics, where did that fatal shot come from. All of that would be part of the investigation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. The vice president defended Officer Ross, on Thursday. I want to play a little bit of what he said, for you. Take a look at what he said.
[START TAPE]
VICE PRES. JD VANCE:
What that headline leaves out is the fact that very ICE officer nearly had his life ended, dragged by a car, six months ago, 33 stitches in his leg. So you think, maybe, he's a little bit sensitive about somebody ramming him with an automobile?
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you think that experience from six months ago, which the vice president detailed, may have impacted Officer Ross's judgment? Is that--
TOM HOMAN:
It may have. It may have. I mean, he was under attack once, with a vehicle. So certainly, and like I said earlier, totality of the circumstances with that prior incident. But the environment, right now, with the threats against ICE officers, ICE officers have been shot at. They have had Molotov cocktails thrown on them. They've been doxed. Again, assault's up over 1,300%, threats alone up 8,000%. And you're in a situation where this lady was impeding and interfering, already. He's in a dangerous situation. And again, I want people to understand this. Put yourself in his shoes. Put yourself in his shoes, where he's in that environment, assaults against ICE officers are at an all-time high, you have a vehicle that is pointed toward him and accelerates toward him. He has a second to make that decision. And I truly believe, and again, this will come out in the investigation, that in his mind, he feared for his life and he took appropriate action. And that, in according to federal law, that's a legitimate response. And even according to Minnesota law, Minnesota state law even talks about a vehicle coming towards you and the right to defend yourself. This officer, I think, in his mind, did the right thing to save his own life and life of others.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You are talking about the perspective of ICE officers. I want to zoom out, a little bit, and talk about the perspective of some of the people all across this country. There have been nine ICE-involved shootings since September. By one count, ICE has detained 170 U.S. citizens. People across this country, as you have seen, Mr. Homan, are out protesting ICE's actions. How do you justify an enforcement strategy that is making so many people feel less safe--
TOM HOMAN:
Because of the false media reports, because members of Congress who want to compare ICE to terrorists--
KRISTEN WELKER:
No. But these are protesters saying this.
TOM HOMAN:
No, listen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But these are protesters saying this. I'm asking you to respond to the protesters who say they feel less safe, who say they're concerned for their neighbor?
TOM HOMAN:
Because they're looking at media reports that are saying ICE are terrorists or racists, they're the Nazis. They're listening to people, you know, using the terms, "Disappearing people." ICE is doing the same thing they've done for 40 years. ICE is in enforced law. If you don't like what ICE is doing, then go protest Congress. ICE is enforcing laws enacted by Congress. But any member of Congress, they'll say ICE is a Nazi, or a racist, or secret police, really? Because they're enforcing laws you enacted. If they're a racist for enforced law, what's that make you? You wrote the law. And let's remember the true data, the true data, 70%, approximately, it goes anywhere from 60% to 70%, of people that are arrested are criminals, bottom line. But some of the media says, "No. That's not true," because they think DUI isn't a crime. DUI kills 13,000 people a year. I think it's a huge public safety issue. It's because of the rhetoric, the hateful rhetoric. So that small population out there that's already half nuts, they hear this rhetoric that ICE is racist, and they're Nazis, and they're disappearing people, that empowers them to do stupid things.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you, because we're almost out of time, I do want to give you the opportunity to respond to some lingering questions about you. As you know, in an undercover operation in 2024, the FBI recorded you accepting a bag, which was determined to contain $50,000 from agents posing as business executives who said you indicated you could help win government contracts in the second Trump administration. I want to stress there was an investigation. It was closed last year. The Justice Department said it found, quote, "No credible evidence of any criminal wrongdoing." I do want to give you an opportunity to respond, though, Mr. Homan. Where is that $50,000? Did you keep it or did you return it?
TOM HOMAN:
I didn't take $50,000 from anybody. And that's a question for the FBI. I'm not going to give this story any more air. Bottom line, I did nothing illegal. I did nothing. And the FBI and DOJ reviewed this. No credible evidence I did anything, because I didn't do anything illegal.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But was there $50,000 in the bag and did you return it?
TOM HOMAN:
Kristen, I'm not giving the story any more air. This is an attack on my integrity and my professionalism. I'm not addressing it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But can--
TOM HOMAN:
That's a question with the FBI.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Can you address, given that it's been recorded, did you keep the money? Did you return the money?
TOM HOMAN:
I did not keep any – $50,000 is ridiculous. And it irritates me, this story keeps going on, and on, and on, even though I've been found with nothing inappropriate. So I will not answer any more of these questions.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But did you return the money?
TOM HOMAN:
I didn't have any money to return.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay.
TOM HOMAN:
I didn't take the $50,000, bottom line.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you, you're saying you did nothing unlawful. Would you be comfortable with the FBI releasing the recordings of the--
TOM HOMAN:
That's a decision for the FBI.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It might be a decision for the FBI, but would you be comfortable, if they release those recordings?
TOM HOMAN:
I get it. I'm not getting ahead of the FBI in this investigation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But can you just say, on a personal level, would you be comfortable releasing the recordings?
TOM HOMAN:
I am not going to get ahead of the FBI. That's their decision.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. All right. Mr. Homan, thank you very much for being here.
TOM HOMAN:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I greatly appreciate it. When we come back, Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back, and joining me now is Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Senator Murphy, welcome back to Meet The Press.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here in person. You just heard my conversation with border czar Tom Homan. He leaned into the idea that he believes this was an act of self-defense, though he did say it's important for the investigation to play out. Having seen the officer's cell phone video, how do you see this? Do you think he was acting in self-defense?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, first of all, let's make it clear. There's not going to be an investigation. The vice president has essentially already declared that this officer has absolute immunity, and in fact, every immigration officer has absolute immunity. Now this is the most high-profile and most heinous act of violence that has been undertaken. But there have already been over a dozen shootings all across our country by ICE officers. And the bottom line is that the way in which DHS is conducting itself today is making our communities less safe. It's not adding to public safety. I heard him say that they are undertaking targeted enforcement actions against criminals. Just not true. The vast majority of people they are rounding up are peaceful immigrants. You've seen the videos of them walking through parking lots asking people whether they are American citizens or not. They are putting citizens of Minneapolis, citizens of the communities they are in, in harm's way, period, stop. That's why the mayor of Minneapolis says, "If you want to make Minneapolis safe, get out of Minneapolis." And the same thing applies to the communities all across the country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you because you're proposing sweeping reforms to DHS, from requiring warrants for arrest, to banning masks during enforcement, to limiting ICE's use of firearms in civil operations. Do any Republicans support your plan? Is it realistic that this could actually pass, Senator?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, Republicans need Democratic votes in order to pass a budget for the Department of Homeland Security. And what we're talking about – I wouldn't initially categorize as sweeping, right? We're simply talking about, you know, essentially going back to the way that ICE was operating when they cared about legality, right? Identification of officers, that's something that has been standard practice in every law enforcement agency all across the country. CBP, who are supposed to be at the border, protecting us at the border, operating in the interior with no training on how to deal with complex urban environments, that's brand new. So we just need to get back to a Department of Homeland Security that is prioritizing the law and prioritizing keeping people safe. And yes, I think it is reasonable for Democrats speaking on behalf of the majority of the American public who don't approve of what ICE is doing to say, "If you want to fund the Department of Homeland Security, I want to fund a Department of Homeland Security that is operating in a safe and legal manner."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, you take me to my next question. Because you posted online earlier this week, quote, "Democrats cannot vote for a DHS budget that doesn't restrain the growing lawlessness of this agency." You obviously know government funding runs out in less than three weeks. Are you actually willing to shut down the government over these DHS proposals?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, I mean, the question is for Republicans. Are they willing to shut down the government simply to endorse the most lawless Department of Homeland Security in the history of the country? Both parties come to a discussion on the budget with priorities. And let me just give you an example of what we're talking about. The amount of training that is given to an ICE officer has been cut in half by this administration. And the number of days of training they get are 47. You know why they get 47 days of training? As an homage to the vanity of the president of the United States. Forty-seven days in training for the 47th president. So we have officers on the streets today who are receiving half as much training. And so no wonder the number of violent incidents are going through the roof. We just want a Department of Homeland Security that is prioritizing people's safety.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But you're not ruling out a potential government shutdown over this battle for DHS reforms.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
That's a decision for Republicans. They--
KRISTEN WELKER:
But you don't rule it out.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
They control the House, the Senate, and the presidency. If they don't want to work with Democrats and shut down the government, that's up to them. And by the way, the last time the government shut down, everybody in the country knew that it was the Republicans that caused it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, some Democrats have been calling for years to abolish ICE. And those calls have been raised and amplified, quite frankly, again this week. Would you support, in the wake of this shooting, abolishing ICE?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, of course you need a domestic enforcement mechanism for the immigration laws of this country. But the way in which ICE is operating today is inhumane and illegal. They rounded up a 16-year-old kid in Meriden, Connecticut, weeks before he was about to graduate, in the country legally, put him in detention for six months. And he got let out right before Christmas because the administration wouldn't even show up in court to defend what they had done. And that is happening thousands of times over in this country. Peaceful, legal immigrants being put in detention. That's not a system that anybody in this country wants to fund.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You have waged a number of criticisms against this administration. Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi was asked back in December, so last year, whether Democrats should put impeachment talk back on the table for the president if they in fact take back the House in 2026. She suggested the president had not yet crossed a line that would trigger impeachment. Do you agree with her?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, as you know, I would be a juror in an impeachment trial. So I don't generally give advice to the House on whether or not they should impeach. But listen, I have common sense. And so I know that this president has committed ten times more impeachable offenses in his second term as he did in his first term. He is stealing from the American people. The amount of corruption that he is involved in, taking a luxury private jet from Qatar, trading national security secrets to a foreign nation in exchange for a $2 billion investment in his cryptocurrency. That is wildly corrupt. The House will make their own determination. But I don't think it's any secret that the president's level of corruption and illegality is nuclear grade in his second term compared to his first term.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay, so it sounds like you disagree with Nancy Pelosi there. Let me ask you about Venezuela. You have called Nicolas Maduro an illegitimate leader. And in 2019 you wrote, quote, "Getting rid of Maduro is good for the United States." Is Venezuela now better off without Nicolas Maduro? Do you give the Trump administration some credit for that?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
So Maduro is an illegitimate leader. Putin is an illegitimate leader. That doesn't mean that it's good policy to invade those countries. What we have seen over and over is that American military hubris, thinking that we can impose a political reality on a foreign country by force, ends up making us less safe. So yes, I thought that it was important for America to pursue a diplomatic strategy with our Latin American allies to try to force elections in Venezuela so as to allow the Venezuelan people to move Maduro out of power. I have never supported an invasion of Venezuela. Because I think–
KRISTEN WELKER:
But is the country better off?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, apparently this new person in charge, Delcy Rodríguez, is imposing a brutal crack-down on the Venezuelan people that's worse in some ways than what Maduro did. So for the Venezuelan people, nothing has changed. All that seemingly has changed is that American oil executives are going to get access to greater amounts of profit out of Venezuela. So this has never been about– Venezuela's not about American national security interests. It's about what's best for Trump's Mar-a-Lago oil industry buddies.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about another focus: Greenland. I had the opportunity to speak with President Trump earlier this week. He said he is, quote, "very serious” about annexing Greenland. In a later interview he didn't take military options off of the table. And of course, it's an autonomous territory of Denmark, which is a NATO ally. Do you think annexing Greenland would effectively be the end of NATO?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
It would be the end of NATO, right? I mean, NATO would have an obligation to defend Greenland. And so clearly whether we would be at war with Europe, with England, with France. But let's also talk about what's at stake here. The president is spending every single day thinking about invading Greenland, managing the Venezuelan economy, building a ballroom. He is not thinking about the American people at all. This month, health insurance premiums on 22 million Americans are going up, doubling in some cases. Kids aren't able to eat three meals because the Trump administration has slashed food assistance. And so every single day, the president is thinking about Greenland, his ballroom, Venezuela. He is spending no time thinking about the actual crises that are being visited on American families. This is a president who is distracted by things that don't matter to the American people at a moment where the American people are in crisis. That is the underlying reality of a White House that has become out of control.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator Chris Murphy, thank you for being here. Thank you for being here in person. We really appreciate it.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. When we come back, Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. And joining me now is Democratic Mayor Jacob Frey of Minneapolis. Mayor Frey, welcome to Meet the Press.
MAYOR JACOB FREY:
Thanks so much for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here in the wake of such a monumental week for your city. I want to start with the Trump administration arguing ICE officer Jonathan Ross was acting in self-defense. You have now seen the officer's cell phone video. What is your response? Do you believe the officer was acting in self-defense?
MAYOR JACOB FREY:
In the immediacy following the shooting, you heard people from the Trump administration saying that the victim was a domestic terrorist. You heard that the ICE agent was acting entirely in self-defense. And here's the thing: You don't need to take my word for it. You don't need to take their word for it. Watch the video. The ICE agent was not run over, as Trump stated. You had a person that was definitively trying to just get out of there. They were trying to leave the scene. That is not a person that's trying to run an ICE agent over. You have a person that is trying to protect our city, to look out for our neighbors. And by the way, there are 435,000 people throughout Minneapolis that are looking out for their neighbors right now because they understand the magnitude of this moment. And they understand that the endurance of our republic depends on us looking out for each other. And we're standing strong here in Minneapolis.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, I hear you accusing Trump administration officials of a rush to judgment. Is it imperative for leaders like yourself to wait for this investigation to play out before making any type of determination about what exactly happened here, Mayor?
MAYOR JACOB FREY:
I think that's a fair point to make. And so let's have the investigation in the hands of someone that isn't biased. Let's not have it exclusively run through the FBI, at the federal government, at the Department of Justice. Let's have it with the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension at the state level. This is an entity that has expertise. They have a long history of investigating cases just like this. And they have had investigations come, by the way, to both conclusions with a charge and without a charge. We need to be doing this right now. We need to be doing this transparently. And what I was pushing back on from the very beginning was a narrative that had jumped to that conclusion right from the get-go. And when you've got a federal administration that is so quick to jump on a narrative as opposed to the truth, I think we all need to be speaking out.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will you accept the results of the FBI investigation, Mayor?
MAYOR JACOB FREY:
You know, if it was an FBI investigation that was done jointly with an investigation from the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, we could have had some trust that there were entities and individuals at the table that were properly reviewing the evidence. Look, I don't know what the results of the investigation will be. I don't know what the evidence behind the investigation will be other than of course the videos that we've all seen with our own two eyes. What I will say is there is deep mistrust because so many of the things that we are hearing are not true. You know, again, obviously people can come to different conclusions and have different perspectives. But when there is debate about baseline facts like for instance: Did the ICE agent get run over? Guys, the answer is no. It didn't happen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you. You told ICE, quote, "To get the eff out of Minneapolis." We are now seeing major protests all across the country as you well know. I know that you've seen them as well. Do you bear any responsibility as a local leader, Mayor Frey, to bring down the temperature right now?
MAYOR JACOB FREY:
Of course I bear responsibility to bring down the temperature. That's part of my role as mayor. And by the way, protests here in Minneapolis are peaceful. We had, I don't know, 10,000 or so people that were protesting and marching yesterday. And virtually all of it was a very peaceful expression of First Amendment rights. And, you know, to those that are offended, I'm sorry I offended their delicate ears. But as far as who inflamed the situation, you know, I dropped an F- bomb. And they killed somebody. I think the killing somebody is the inflammatory element here, not the F-bomb, which I'm sure we've all heard before.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let me ask you because bigger picture – before this week, Mayor, ICE had already been ramping up its presence in Minneapolis. You said your police officers would not cooperate with them, that ICE enforcement was unconstitutional. You warned before this deadly shooting, quote, "Somebody's going to get seriously injured." Would you go so far as saying that you would support abolishing ICE?
MAYOR JACOB FREY:
Well, first off, I did not say that ICE enforcement was unconstitutional. What I said is the way that they are doing it is unconstitutional. You can't come into a city and discriminate solely on the basis of: “Are you Latino? Or are you Somali?” And then randomly pick people up off the street after that. I mean, we have had pregnant women dragged through the street. We've had teenagers that are American citizens just picked up. You can't just detain somebody because they look like they are Somali or they look like they are Latino. To be very clear, for the whole country, that is what is happening right now. So, look, do I think that we should just abolish the entire entity that does immigration enforcement? No. But the way it is being utilized doesn't make sense. I'm not asking for the DOJ to be abolished. I'm not asking for the Office of Management and Budget to be abolished. I am saying that the way that these institutions are being utilized right now by the Trump administration is wrong, and to be clear, is unconstitutional.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let me press you a bit because Tom Homan, the border czar, says Minneapolis' sanctuary city policy – just for our viewers, that effectively shields undocumented immigrants from deportation – makes it harder for ICE to enforce immigration law. How do you respond to that argument that your city stance and eliminating cooperation with ICE has made it harder for federal law enforcement to safely enforce immigration laws in your city?
MAYOR JACOB FREY:
Look, what our policy says is that I don't want our police officers spending time, working with ICE on immigration enforcement. Because why? That's not our primary job. You know what I want our police officers doing? I want them stopping murders from happening. I want them preventing carjackings. And by the way, they're doing a hell of a job right now. We've only had two shootings in Minneapolis this whole year. And by the way, 50% of them were from ICE. So I want our officers focusing on safety. You know what I don't them doing? I don't want them spending a single second hunting down a father who just dropped his kids off at day care, is about to go work a 12-hour shift, who happened to be from Ecuador. That guy, that guy, he makes Minneapolis a better place, and I am proud to have him in our city. So, you know, I want our officers focusing on safety, not randomly plucking people off the street and hunting them down.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about the leadership in your state. Dozens of people in Minnesota have been charged and convicted with stealing millions of dollars of taxpayer money for government programs. Do you think Governor Walz did enough to stop the fraud in your state? And do you support his decision not to run for reelection?
MAYOR JACOB FREY:
Well, look, Governor Walz is the reason that we've got paid family leave in Minnesota. He's the reason we've got free school lunches. Him and I, we've been through thick and thin together especially over these last five years --
KRISTEN WELKER:
But did he do enough to combat fraud, Mayor? Did he do enough to combat fraud?
MAYOR JACOB FREY:
Look, obviously everybody could have done more to prevent fraud. And I think that's a fair point to make. You do more to prevent fraud. And you look at what he's doing right now. He's setting up a whole bunch of infrastructure to do that. And by the way, look, the fraud's real. We've all got to acknowledge it. The fraud is very real. And by the way, when somebody commits fraud, and there are many that have done that, you investigate it. You charge. You prosecute. And yes, you put the person in jail as an individual. You put the person in jail as an individual. You do not hold an entire community, any community, accountable for the actions of individuals.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Mayor Jacob Frey, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.
MAYOR JACOB FREY:
Thank you so much for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come anti-government protests spreading across Iran. Could the regime fall? NBC's Chief Foreign Correspondent, Richard Engel, joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. President Trump is again vowing to take action in Iran if the government escalates its already brutal crack-down of anti-government protests that have spread across the country over the last 15 days, posing one of the biggest challenges to Islamic Republic's leadership in its history. At least 76 protesters have been killed and over 2,600 have been arrested in the protests. According to an Iranian rights group, Iran has warned it will retaliate against any U.S. intervention as an internet blackout continues to block the world from seeing the full extent of the unrest. Joining me now is NBC News Chief Foreign Correspondent, Richard Engel. Richard, thank you so much for being here in person.
RICHARD ENGEL:
It's great to be here in person at a very important time.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It is. There's so much happening right now in Iran. I know you've been tracking all of it. You and I have discussed protests country-wide in the past. But this feels different. What makes this moment different, Richard?
RICHARD ENGEL:
Well, there are hundreds of thousands of people on the streets. They are setting fires. They are occupying certain neighborhoods and able to hold them for certain amounts of time, at least temporarily. That's different. And the protesters, they're not asking for change. That's how it started. They wanted economic reforms. Their currency was in free-fall. Now they want it to go. And the context is completely different. Iran is weaker than it's ever been because it lost Hezbollah. It lost Bashar al-Assad. So I would say definitely this is the weakest that they've been, the biggest challenge that they face since the 1979 revolution. They beat back two previous demonstrations – street demonstrations. But they were not as weak as they are right now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and it comes, Richard, as President Trump is leveling these very stern warnings saying, "If you intensify your brutal crackdown, if these protesters start to die, we could potentially take action." How is that playing in Iran?
RICHARD ENGEL:
So the protesters are hearing that. I'm talking to activists here, it’s very difficult to communicate with people directly in Iran. A few have Starlinks. The system has been turned out – turned on. So some communications are coming out. They are encouraged by what President Trump is saying, absolutely. They saw what President Trump did in Venezuela. But that also makes them nervous. Because they don't want a repeat of Venezuela where the U.S. just moved in, took the top, top leaders, but left the security services in place. They think if the same thing happens in Iran and the security apparatus is still there, that they'll be hunted down, and they'll all end up swinging from cranes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, an incredibly tense situation. Richard, thank you so much for being here to help us unpack it. We really appreciate it. It's great to see you.
RICHARD ENGEL:
Great to see you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, President Trump says his own morality is the only limit on his global powers. The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. NBC News White House Correspondent Monica Alba; Jonathan Martin, senior political columnist and politics bureau chief for POLITICO; Stephen Hayes, CEO and editor of The Dispatch; and New York Times columnist Jamelle Bouie. Thanks to all of you for being here. Monica, let me start with you. The debate that we are seeing unfold all across this country unfolded here. You heard Mayor Frey's perspective. You heard Tom Homan's perspective on what occurred in Minneapolis. Take us inside your conversations at the White House. What are administration officials saying?
MONICA ALBA:
Well look, Kristen, it was the White House that came out in the earliest hours after this tragic shooting with their own assessment, essentially defending the ICE officer, saying that he acted in self-defense before all of the facts had emerged. But now they are just simply hardening their position. They are blaming the woman who was shot. And senior White House officials are telling me that if this conversation turns to being about potentially defunding immigration enforcement, potentially having a government shutdown, I was told that is a fight that they would relish, that they would welcome. But we know that this president has tried a law-and-order approach before critical elections with mixed results, and it comes at a time where more and more Americans are expressing concerns about the tactics that were used specifically here by ICE. So it sets up just a huge, huge political divide.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it's fascinating reporting, Monica. J-Mart, that fact that the administration feels emboldened by this argument, they say, "Okay, bring it on." And yet at the same time I thought it was notable, Tom Homan struggled when I asked him about Kristi Noem's allegation of domestic terrorism. He basically said, "I'm not sure all the information that she has."
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Right.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What does that tell you about those initial assessments that Monica's talking about?
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Well, he didn't want to embrace that description –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
– for obvious reasons, because he smells the politics of that being pretty rough. Look, if you take a step back for a minute, since Trump came into office almost a year ago his numbers have come down on a variety of major issues, health care, the economy. He's held up pretty strong, though, on immigration, which was really one of his central issues in the '24 campaign. What they're doing now puts that at risk because you're A) motivating the left, and you're alienating the broad center of this country when you pursue tactics like they are with these ICE raids. People don't want this. And by the way, if you don't believe me, look at what Homan said during the interview. He drops the reference to this Fox News report about all of the bad guys who are being rounded up. It just so happens that over the weekend Fox News put out these mugshots in a terrible sort of litany of crimes committed by folks ICE had rounded up. They're doing that because they know politically they're losing their advantage on the issue, and they're trying to shift the focus back to the bad guys.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Stephen, is that an accurate assessment of the strategy?
STEPHEN HAYES:
Absolutely. Yeah, Republicans are on very solid ground when they're talking about the disastrous immigration policy of the Biden administration. It was a disaster. Virtually nobody defends it on the Democratic side right now. When they're talking about sanctuary cities. Republicans are on very solid ground talking about sanctuary cities, and you saw Mayor Frey I think have difficulty answering those questions about sanctuary cities.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Absolutely.
STEPHEN HAYES:
Where they lose support is exactly where J-Mart said. These tactics, this kind of deportation, you saw this in the AP poll that was out last month. You saw a slide from Republicans supportive of the president's policies of eight points. You saw a bigger slide from independents supporting the president's policies because they don't like this kind of stuff.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, Jamelle, talk about the politics of this for Democrats, as Stephen and J-Mart are saying. It's quite complicated. There are also some comparisons being made to George Floyd in the protests that we saw in the wake of that. How do you see this unfolding?
JAMELLE BOUIE:
I mean, I think the politics of this can be actually quite advantageous for Democrats, in part because, as J-Mart points out, the administration is alienating the broad middle of the American public here. Last year during the controversy over the removal of Kilmar Ábrego García, you saw a similar dynamic play out where the administration was like, "This is strong positioning for us." But the broader public was like, "We don't like the idea of people just being snatched and sent to a foreign prison. Likewise here, we don't like the idea of masked men snatching people in the streets and shooting Americans." And I think Democrats have a lot of space to push against that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, so much of what we were talking about is how the president has chosen to wield hIs authority. In an interview with the New York Times this week he was asked about that on the world stage. How does he see the limits of his authority? Let's take a look at that and get everyone's reaction on the other side.
[BEGIN TAPE]
THE NEW YORK TIMES:
Do you see any checks on your power on the world stage? Is there anything that could stop you if you wanted to?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Yeah, there's one thing. My own morality, my own mind. It's the only thing that can stop and that's very good.
THE NEW YORK TIMES:
Not international law?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I don't need international law. I'm not looking to hurt people.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Monica, powerful proclamation there.
MONICA ALBA:
It all boils down to this. This is a total encapsulation of how he does view the limits, or lack thereof, on his power. And you can see it in the last couple of days from what he is essentially instructing oil companies to do with regards to Venezuela. They have expressed some skepticism. Or when you talk about Greenland and the idea that this president is serious about this, and you have world leaders acknowledging that right now, even though officials there are saying Greenland is not for sale. He says, "We can do this the easy way or we can do this the hard way." That is everything you need to know about his thinking.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
There were nascent signs at Capitol Hill this week of some pushback against –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
– President Trump's power because of language like that. Look, one week after he takes out Maduro, extraordinary, daring operation, Donald Trump keeps getting in his own way politically. He gives comments like that to The New York Times. He openly floats the idea of using armed force to seize Greenland from a NATO ally. He's his own worst enemy politically and he's inviting, for the first time, Steve's going to be shocked here, but the signs of pushback from his own party on Capitol Hill.
STEPHEN HAYES:
Yeah, nations look tepid, right? I mean, you had some very gentle pushback from Republicans and a couple of votes, some rhetorical pushback from Republicans. But I think as a descriptive matter this is what Donald Trump has always believed. Both, I think, here at home and abroad. He's just saying it out loud. And you notice that you haven't had Republicans rushing the microphones to say, "No, Mr. President. There are constraints on your power beyond your morality."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, I did say the quiet part out loud. Jamelle, what do you think the implications are? Will Democrats focus on this at all or do you think they'll shift focus back to domestic issues?
JAMELLE BOUIE:
I mean, I'm sure they'll shift focus back to democrat issues because that's where they're strongest. But I just have to say, this is such a profoundly – this is antithetical to how presidents throughout this country's history have thought about themselves and thought about their office. One president that Donald Trump has said that he kind of looks up to or sees as a model is Andrew Jackson, noted populist Andrew Jackson. In Andrew Jackson's first inaugural, Andrew Jackson calls himself an instrument of the federal Constitution. And that he would, "Keep steadily in view the limitations and the extent of the executive power, trusting thereby to discharge the functions of my office without transcending its authority." Even Andrew Jackson understood that at the end of the day he was bound to something.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Politically speaking could this in any way harm him as we face the midterms?
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Absolutely, because Americans want the focus to be on them, not one man's vanity and far-reaching ambition to be on Mount Rushmore, win the Nobel Peace Prize, and name everything in Washington after himself.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. And Monica, he’s going to shift focus back to domestic issues this week?
MONICA ALBA:
He is going to be traveling to Michigan on Tuesday and he's going to give a broad economic speech. And so they are going to try to unveil some potential new economic proposals. We've seen him talk more about housing. You've seen him talk about credit card limits. They are trying to make that argument, while certainly the president's mind is very, very focused on issues overseas.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, guys. Thank you so much. Great conversation. Really appreciate it. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
