CHRIS MATTHEWS, host:
See, what I think happened--and I want to check this over with you--Ronald
Reagan popularized hostility to big government.
Sunset in America. Ronald Reagan fought communism abroad, big government and
high taxes at home, but a lot of folks felt the friendly fire.
Thanks for the memories. The second George Bush wants to be the second Ronald
Reagan. Can the president win this one as the Gipper?
Mounting Rushmore. Washington, Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt and Tom Jefferson.
And what about the latecomers, Wilson and FDR and Truman? Will Reagan make
the grade?
Plus, I'll have some thoughts on why American presidents should take a former
president to lunch. All that and more with a history-reading roundtable on
your weekly news show.
Announcer: From Congress to the West Wing he's been a Washington insider, now
he's one of the Capitol's top journalists: Chris Matthews.
MATTHEWS: Hi, I'm Chris Matthews, welcome to the show. Let's go inside.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Interview: NBC's Andrea Mitchell, Chicago Tribunes' Clarence
Page, US News & World Report's Gloria Borger, and CNN's Tucker
Carlson discuss former President Ronald Reagan, top 10
presidents, and President George W. Bush
CHRIS MATTHEWS, host:
Andrea Mitchell covered the presidency of Ronald Reagan for NBC News; Clarence
Page is a columnist for the Chicago Tribute; Gloria Borger, who covered the
Congress in the Reagan era, writes a column for US News and World Report; and
Tucker Carlson co-hosts "Crossfire" on CNN.
First up, sunset in America. Ronald Reagan inflated moral, deflated
government and blasted the Berlin Wall. Here he is, summing up his hit lit.
President RONALD REAGAN (January 26, 1987): (From file footage) Together we
not only cut the increase in government spending nearly in half, we brought
about the largest tax reductions and the most sweeping changes in our tax
structure since the beginning of this century.
Together we've begun to restore that margin of military safety that ensures
peace. Our country's uniform is being worn once again with pride.
MATTHEWS: Andrea, if there had been no Ronald Reagan would the Cold War have
ended as it did?
Ms. ANDREA MITCHELL (NBC News): Not when it did. It might have ended--it
would have ended eventually. It wouldn't have ended as soon as it did. And
what he brought to it was not only the weapons build-up but also the human
rights agenda. He communicated that human rights had to be central to any
summit with the Soviet leader, and that empowered thousands and millions of
dissidents as well as Democrats, punitive Democrats, like Mikhail Gorbachev.
MATTHEWS: Let's talk about some of the best Democrats--going to talk about
them more on this show--Harry Truman. If he had used the same language,
Clarence, as Ronald Reagan used--"evil empire," "tear down this wall"--back in
1948 during the--say the--the Berlin air--air--airlift and not finessed it not
finessed it the way Jack Kennedy had to do later on, would that have been
smart or would that have been dangerous?
Mr. CLARENCE PAGE (Chicago Tribune): Very interesting question, Chris,
because obviously very different times. That was early Cold War. Reagan came
along in late Cold War. It was important to note that--that the increased
military spending under Reagan put a lot of pressure on the Soviet Union that
they couldn't afford. You also had the Afghan War going on, which--under
Jimmy Carter--we began to supply the Afghan rebels, which, by the way, gave
birth to al-Qaeda later on. There are consequences to this sort of thing.
But there were a lot of things happening. There were the uprisings going on
in Poland and--and Hungary and west--East Germany. There were a lot that was
going on. Reagan's rhetoric certainly gave a theme to it all, and in
retrospect it looks like he was certainly prophetic and prescient, if whether
or not he pulled all the strings.
MATTHEWS: That's the question, Tucker. Tucker, Gloria, was that a question
of a man who simply could see ahead like Pat Moynihan, the former senator from
New York...
Mr. TUCKER CARLSON (CNN): No!
MATTHEWS: ...who could see it in a way the CIA couldn't see that the Soviet
system was rotten from the inside?
Mr. CARLSON: No, I think it was--it was obvious. It was obvious not simply
that it was inefficient and that it had bad leaders and it didn't work well,
it was obvious that it was evil. That there was a moral component at the very
center that it was just wrong, the system itself was intrinsically wrong.
This is a pretty obvious idea now...
MATTHEWS: But bad things last.
Mr. CARLSON: ...not at all--that's right, the Ottoman empire, for instance.
Went on hundreds of years after its af...
MATTHEWS: How about a more recent example: Franco? He lasted an awful long
time.
Mr. CARLSON: No but--but I'm just saying--I'm just saying the Soviet Union
would have lasted I think much--could have lasted potentially much longer
without Reagan.
MATTHEWS: Right.
Ms. GLORIA BORGER (CNBC): Well but--but as Pat Moynihan much later pointed
out, we all thought that the Soviet Union was a lot stronger...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Ms. BORGER: ...and richer than it really was, and that's why Ronald Reagan
was talking about Star Wars, which some people say was not one of his greatest
ideas.
MATTHEWS: OK. OK, greatness, timing, luck. A lot of factors went into this
thing at the end. I want to ask you about this other question of the
government here. Ronald Reagan popularized hostility to big government in
this country, so much so that this Democratic president followed his example.
President BILL CLINTON (January 23, 1996) (From file footage): We know and we
have worked to give the American people a smaller, less bureaucratic
government in Washington. The era of big government is over.
MATTHEWS: God, he looked young in those pictures.
Tucker, he's your age in these pictures. Let me as you this: did Ronald
Reagan--did Ronald Reagan start this villainization of big government or did
he simply exploit it?
Mr. CARLSON: No, I mean I think the seeds were there going, I mean, back to
1964 and Barry Goldwater, but I mean it was this confluence of leadership of a
great man and a ripe era. I mean there was a lot of evidence after the
'70s--which was an incredibly depressing decade, we kind of forget it was
depressing, and by the end of it there was a lot of evidence that in fact big
government doesn't work very well and so he had a lot--he had a lot to work
with. He had a lot of valid examples to use. But I think, again, like in the
case of the Soviet Union, without Reagan I don't think the consensus would
have changed as quickly as it did.
Mr. PAGE: Well, excuse me, let's remember that everybody forgets Jimmy
Carter started deregulation, you know, the FCC, FAA. That process began under
Carter but certainly Reagan accelerated it and--and reducing the size of
government etc. That--that was a predominant theme of his.
Ms. MITCHELL: And with the air traffic controllers strike he cemented it.
Mr. PAGE: PATCO, right.
Ms. MITCHELL: By firing the union...
MATTHEWS: He brought the union...
Ms. MITCHELL: ...that federal workers union, he basically sent the signal
that it was really here to stay and he made it permanent.
Ms. BORGER: But he didn't get rid of the Department of Education. He talked
about cutting back on Social Security, and I--and--and that gave Democrats an
issue for the next two decades. So--so I think in a sense that while he said,
`The era of big government is over,' it didn't really happen.
MATTHEWS: Well he did a couple of big hits. First of all, I think the
momentum of his anti-big government message probably helped kill the health
care bill of Hillary Clinton's in '94. It certainly helped Bill Clinton sign
the Welfare Reform Bill in 1996, that was Reaganism, right, Clarence?
Mr. PAGE: But, you know, Chris, I would--I would argue that had the Clintons
not gone for a complicated plan--I mean the strategy of that old plan, it was
poorly sold, divided the country. There were vulnerable attacks from the
insurance industry and it helped to sink the Democratic Congress in the--those
'94 midterms, you'll remember.
MATTHEWS: So you give credit to the Clintons for killing big government more
than Reagan, ironically.
Mr. PAGE: I've always said, as--as Patrick Moynihan and others have said,
`If we had just extended--or--or if they had just proposed extending Medicare
to cover everybody, not just seniors'...
MATTHEWS: OK.
Mr. PAGE: ...that would have gone over a lot better, just for an example.
MATTHEWS: I want to be a little tough here, but I also want to be smart. If
we were doing this program as a time capsule--in other words long after the
mourning is over of this week, which was so appropriate and so wonderful, but
if we have to write for the future, what about all the things that did go bad?
All the institutionalized people, all the mentally ill and emotionally ill who
were pushed out into the streets, the homeless population to a large extent of
the 1980s. What about that? What about catsup being described by the--by the
Agriculture Department as a vegetable? What about all the attempts to cut
Social Security?
Gloria, you were covering Congress stories in all that. It really happened.
Ms. BORGER: Well I covered that on Capitol Hill. I--I think in a way Ronald
Reagan gave the Democrats their own voice back. I think Tip O'Neill, the--the
Speaker of the House, whom you worked for, was a man who found his own voice
in this. But--but the difference was Chris, the fights were very partisan in
those days.
MATTHEWS: Right.
Ms. BORGER: They were tough, they were partisan. You know, we've heard a
lot this week about how everybody got along and they li--they really fought,
but it was over big ideas and big issues.
MATTHEWS: You know what the big difference was? Everybody looked better for
those fights.
Ms. BORGER: Right.
MATTHEWS: Tip, who I worked for, looked better because of those fights;
Reagan looked better because they seemed like big philosophical discussions,
not the pettiness that you see so much of today.
Ms. BORGER: It was about belief.
MATTHEWS: It was bigger. And everybody look better fighting for their
belief.
Ms. BORGER: It was about belief.
MATTHEWS: Let's talk about how the fight went on. Andrea, you are such a
pro. I love these old pictures we're going to be looking at now. You had to
fight...
Ms. BORGER: Oh, bull--bull.
Ms. MITCHELL: That's my younger sister.
MATTHEWS: ...you--no, we have to do it. You had to fight those helicopter
blades. I want to know what it was like out there trying to get your
questions heard above the sound. Let's take a look. We have evidence.
(Beginning of file footage)
Unidentified Man: Tell us about it.
Ms. MITCHELL: (Unintelligible.)
Man: Why are they so upset?
(End of file footage)
MATTHEWS: Who says it's not a physical job? Look at you there. No, what was
it like dealing with that...
Ms. MITCHELL: How many of us could say we look better now?
MATTHEWS: I'm going to tell you something--I'm going--I'm going to tell you
something...
Ms. BORGER: You do look better now.
Mr. PAGE: You look better now.
Ms. MITCHELL: Give me a break, Chris.
MATTHEWS: ...this isn't about us, it's about you. I'm sorry. Tell me about
how tough it was getting those questions through that--the noise and that PR
machine.
Ms. MITCHELL: Well it was the PR machine that made us look stupid because we
had--the whole time he was running for re-election in 1984, there was not a
single news conference. So the only time to ask him a question was at a photo
opportunity, and often he would answer, and if he came over and answered or
relented. And he was always, you know, `I can't hear you,' or `I've got to
go,' look at my watch.
But the fact is the niceness of the man--the very first news conference that I
went to was he saying to me--you know, he barely knew me--he didn't really
know my name because he didn't keep names straight, but he said, `now Andrea,
what is it you've been trying so hard to ask me?' And it was because of those
weekend shouting fests.
MATTHEWS: You should have asked him, `Why don't you turn off the helicopter
since you're in charge?'
Ms. MITCHELL: Sometimes they did. When he wanted to answer they turned off
the chopper.
MATTHEWS: Oh he did? OK, let's stop there.
Thanks for the memories. That's an old Bob Hope line, but President Bush
wants to be another Ronald Reagan and this week probably helped. Here the
president is talking about and admiring his role model.
President GEORGE W. BUSH (Tuesday): He had a core set of principles from
which he would not deviate. He understood that a leader is a person who sets
clear goals and makes decisions based upon principles that are etched in his
soul.
MATTHEWS: In a way it's a very fair comparison. Let's look at the parallels.
Here are the core Reagan and Bush positions. Cut taxes dramatically, pursue
an aggressive foreign policy, beef up defense spending and tilt to the right
on cultural issues.
Tucker, is he the man to be the next Ronald Reagan?
Mr. CARLSON: I think--I think there are some significant differences.
First, Bush is not a small-government conservative, I don't think by any
measure at all, without getting into all the depressing details. The key
difference--the key difference, however, is that Reagan really was--this is a
cliche--a great communicator. He really was. He--he expressed himself well,
he convinced people of things, he used rhetoric the way a president ought to.
This president, for all his many strengths, is a very poor communicator and
does not convince people of his position.
Mr. PAGE: But Tucker, don't...
Ms. MITCHELL: And he had big ideas. You know, if you've got big ideas then
it becomes easier even to communicate them. They--they were big, big notions
about government and about the role of American abroad, and the ideas now seem
to be much narrower.
Mr. PAGE: Well, you know, Reagan wasn't so resolute. He cut taxes once and
he increased them, I think, five or six times, including payroll taxes. But,
yeah, he expressed the theme very well, sold it very well, his anecdotes were
marvelous. This--this common narrative of--throughout his term will exist
longer than the reality will be remembered and that's kind of what we're
seeing now.
MATTHEWS: Exactly.
Mr. PAGE: By the way, Tucker, Reagan didn't reduce government and the Bushes
didn't reduce government. Is anybody really a small government conservative?
Ms. MITCHELL: (Unintelligible).
Mr. PAGE: Yeah.
Mr. CARLSON: Well this--no, but here's the key. That's what
government--that's what presidents do. They don't make laws. They veto
things--this president doesn't, but generally they do--and they send troops
into battle, and the third thing they do is they convince people of things.
They take the rhetoric to the Congress and to the people. And Reagan was
great at that. You can't underestimate how great he was at that.
MATTHEWS: But he didn't reduce the size of government.
Mr. CARLSON: No, he didn't.
Ms. BORGER: Right--right, but I think--I think culturally Reagan was much
more suspect. People did not believe he really cared about those cultural
issues--people he appointed to the court, Sandra Day O'Connor.
MATTHEWS: You mean he's a closet moderate.
Ms. BORGER: A classic closest moderate, right.
Ms. MITCHELL: He was a pragmatist.
Ms. BORGER: And--right, he was a pragmatist and--and...
Ms. MITCHELL: He believed in getting things done and then negotiating a
compromise.
Ms. BORGER: ...and--and with Bush--with Bush evangelicals really believe
he's their guy.
MATTHEWS: Wait till we come back--wait till we come back. We're going to
talk about where he belongs in history. This is going to be high--exciting
when we come back.
Before we go to break, however, the senior George Bush turns 80 this weekend
and he's geared up for your usual older gentleman celebration: birthday cake,
some presents, and a 10,000-foot parachute plunge.
(Clip of former President George Bush parachuting)
MATTHEWS: There he is, jumping on his 75th. When he lands this time he'll
celebrate with former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev, former British Prime
Minister John Major and 5,000 other guests.
I'll be right back with the top presidents of American history. Does Reagan
make that list? Plus my own deliberations on why past presidents should be
our Dutch uncles at the White House. Stick around.
Announcer: Today's show is brought to you by...
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MATTHEWS: The top 10 list of US presidents. Does Ronald Reagan belong?
Plus, why past president should be welcome at the White House. Stick with me.
(Announcements)
President FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT: (From file footage) The only thing we have to
fear is fear itself.
President HARRY S. TRUMAN: (From file footage) The free nations face a
worldwide threat. It must be met with a worldwide defense.
MATTHEWS: Welcome back. Those were two of the 10 best presidents in US
history: Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman. Let's check in with the
Matthews Meter. We asked 12 of our regular guests to come up their list of
top presidents. Here are eight in chronological order that seem to be a
consensus. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Abraham
Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Harry Truman. That leaves two
slots for the top 10 and four hot contenders. James Polk, who won the Mexican
war, Ike, JFK and Ronald Reagan. All but one of our Matthews Meterites gave
one of the top slots, one of the top 10 slots, to Ronald Reagan.
Gloria, you're one of those. Why does he deserve membership on that
incredible list?
Ms. BORGER: Well, because I think Reagan was a president who restored
respect to the presidency in this country, the office of the presidency. He
was an authentic man who had real beliefs--I keep going back to that word when
I think about Ronald Reagan. He stood for something, whether you agreed with
his him or disagreed with him, and they communicated well.
MATTHEWS: OK. Did you think that 10 years ago?
Ms. BORGER: Yes, I thought that Ronald Reagan stood for something.
MATTHEWS: OK. OK.
Clarence, you're on the list of those who think he belongs on the list.
Mr. PAGE: Well only because you forced me into it, Chris. The fact is...
MATTHEWS: You can say no.
Mr. PAGE: This is not the week...
MATTHEWS: No, you can say no.
Mr. PAGE: ...well this is not the week to be judging that list.
MATTHEWS: OK.
Mr. PAGE: You know, this was a week of mourning, it was a week of really a
celebration of the--the finer points of Reagan the man.
MATTHEWS: OK, can I squeeze you further?
Mr. PAGE: And...
MATTHEWS: Can I squeeze your further? Who do you want to bump? Ike or
Kennedy from that list?
Mr. PAGE: Who do I want to bump?
MATTHEWS: Because you got to bump--you got to bump one of them.
Mr. PAGE: I was about to tell you--I was about to tell you that I think
Reagan's important because he was a pivotal figure, no question...
MATTHEWS: All right.
Mr. PAGE: ...that--that was a shift. You said Ike or Kennedy?
MATTHEWS: Which one would you bump to make room for Reagan?
Mr. PAGE: I--it would have to be Eisenhower and that's a tough call, you
know, between those three. That's why, ask me again in a year maybe and...
MATTHEWS: Are you willing to bump Coolidge for Reagan?
Mr. CARLSON: I--Woodrow Wilson should not be on that list. Teddy Roosevelt
ought to be on it twice...
Ms. BORGER: Agreed.
Mr. PAGE: Uh-huh.
Mr. CARLSON: ...and Reagan absolutely at least if not three times. And--and
Reagan is on there--history judges Reagan well because he got the one question
that mattered in his era right. It was the question about the Soviet Union
and he answered it correctly and many people didn't.
MATTHEWS: He did answer it correctly.
Mr. PAGE: And was supportive...
MATTHEWS: We agree on that. And too many people didn't get it right.
Let's start around the table. Quick predictions here. Assessment. I know
it's--it's still full of our emotions and it's a bad week to make bottom-line
judgements but we're going to make them. Best thing Ronald Reagan did, Andrea
Mitchell.
Ms. MITCHELL: Being willing to negotiate with the evil empire.
MATTHEWS: Clarence.
Mr. PAGE: He did revive a sense of what Americans do for themselves and
self-reliance, and that's an important thing that'll live long after him.
Ms. BORGER: Being willing to talk to Democrats.
MATTHEWS: OK.
Mr. CARLSON: And no matter how tough his rhetoric he was always cheery and
he had a marvelous sense of humor. I'd like to see that again.
MATTHEWS: Worst thing.
Ms. MITCHELL: Ignoring AIDS for far too long.
Mr. PAGE: Being too blind to the suffering and pain of others. Not
really--and I don't think it was out of banality, I think he just didn't know.
Mike Deaver thinks he was just naive about race relations and problems of
poverty, and I like to think that in a charitable view.
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Ms. BORGER: The Iran-Contra mess. Len--letting the inmates run the asylum,
which is just what he did.
Mr. CARLSON: I think sending troops to Lebanon in '83, and even before that
allowing Israel to invade Lebanon I think was a huge mistake.
MATTHEWS: Do you think it's possible--here's my theory on Reagan--he was
excellent on the two things he cared most about. Never never really went
wrong. The Soviet Union had to be beaten and brought down, and he had just
the right time to do it. He couldn't have done what he did if he were Harry
Truman. They were too strong, too well-positioned, too--too nervy. The other
thing he was good at is a time to reduce the growth of government. It was
getting too out of hand. Where he got into trouble is what you're talking.
Whenever he got away from those two things, whether it was the Iran-Contra
fiasco, or it was getting into Lebanon in the stupidest way, he didn't seem to
have much else he wanted to do.
Is that fair, Tucker? He had two things in mind and...
Mr. CARLSON: Of course.
MATTHEWS: ...outside that he wished he wasn't there.
Mr. CARLSON: Well there are only--in every presidency, every single one
since George Washington, there are two, maybe three themes in each presidency.
There are only so many ideas you can keep in your head at one time or a
president can achieve. And it's bound, when you move off those ideas, it's
bound to get piddling and less successful.
MATTHEWS: You're right. Two big ideas. Ending the Soviet Union and reducing
the size of government. I think he would have been happy with both, in fact I
know he was.
Andrea, tell me something I don't know.
Ms. MITCHELL: Well the Senate Intelligence Committee now wants to
investigate whether the CIA also got wrong how bad the counter-insurgency
would be. But intelligence and State Department officials, knowing their own
private predictions and reports, say that they'd be making a big mistake
because the real losers, if the Senate Intelligence Committee does that, will
be the Pentagon and the NSC.
MATTHEWS: Why would they be the losers if the CIA blew it again?
Ms. MITCHELL: Because it wasn't the CIA. The CIA and the State Department
both warned--perhaps it wouldn't be this bad--but they warned that it was
going to be pretty bad. But it was the White House and the Pentagon saying
that it was going to be OK.
MATTHEWS: In other words, the hawks did not want to hear it would be tough.
Mr. PAGE: Chris, in the fall look for Nancy Reagan to put Bush and the
administration on the spot by launching a major initiative in favor of
stem-cell research.
MATTHEWS: Do you think she might hold him up and say, `I won't come to the
convention unless you give something to this cause for Alzheimer's?'
Mr. PAGE: I'm not going to go into details at this point, Chris.
MATTHEWS: That's not a detail. That would be hardball.
Mr. PAGE: Chris, you--you must invite me back. A major initiative.
MATTHEWS: What do you think? That might be a very strong move on her part.
Ms. BORGER: John Kerry has to get down and dirty in politics next week about
his own convention. He's got to work to stem this labor dispute in Boston or
they're going to have pickets...
MATTHEWS: The carpenters, the riggers, who else is out?
Ms. BORGER: ...they're going to have pickets outside the Democratic
Convention. And he's got one problem.
MATTHEWS: What?
Ms. BORGER: The mayor of Boston is angry, furious with him, because he said
he might not accept the nomination there. He's being very stubborn and tough.
MATTHEWS: Yeah. I want to see if Teddy crosses the picket line.
Mr. CARLSON: That is such a great story. I love that.
MATTHEWS: Yeah. Tucker:
Mr. CARLSON: I keep hearing--this week again I heard another fairly placed
Democrat say Chuck Hagel possible VP for Kerry. I have no idea if it's true.
It's so interesting I can't help but pass it on.
MATTHEWS: You know what?
Mr. PAGE: I love it.
Ms. BORGER: (Unintelligible)...I heard it.
MATTHEWS: Can I make a prediction?
Mr. CARLSON: Yeah.
MATTHEWS: Save your money.
Anyway, thanks to a great roundtable. Andrea Mitchell, Clarence Page, Gloria
Borger, and Tucker Carlson. I'll be right back with a message to the current
and future presidents. Take a former president to lunch. Stick with me.
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MATTHEWS: It's great getting your e-mails; keep them coming.
TEXT:
Chris,
I watch your show every weekend
and enjoy it very much. Thank you!
-Joe
Clearwater, FL
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Commentary: Current presidents could benefit from wisdom of
previous presidents
CHRIS MATTHEWS, host:
Old Irish custom holds that when it comes time for a father to turn over the
farm to his son, the father moves into a smaller room of that house and
becomes the son's counselor. Maybe we should adopt that custom for former
American presidents. We have four surviving right now: Gerald Ford, Jimmy
Carter, senior George Bush and Bill Clinton. Two Republicans, two Democrats,
neither pair getting much use by the current president.
Why the underemployment? When Democrat Harry Truman succeeded to the
presidency following the death of Franklin Roosevelt he sent the following
handwritten note to the man FDR had crushed in 1932, Republican Herbert
Hoover. "If you should be in Washington, I would be most happy to talk over
the European food situation with you. Also, it would be a pleasure for me to
become acquainted with you." Until that letter arrived, Hoover had suffered
through 13 years of partisan humiliation. He was so moved by Truman's request
that his eyes filled with tears as he entered the Oval Office for the first
time since his rejection by the voters.
Jack Kennedy was another president who saw the value of experience. After the
disastrous Bay of Pigs invasion he invited his predecessor, Dwight D.
Eisenhower, to meet him at Camp David. After they walked the grounds of the
presidential retreat Kennedy told reporters he'd asked Ike, the hero of
Normandy, to share his thoughts. What he didn't tell the press is that Ike
had vigorously criticized Kennedy's decision to call off a promised air strike
that would have given the Cuban invaders vital cover.
The bottom line: if the meeting between the young and former president did
nothing else it united the country and gave Kennedy an even higher job
approval rating than before the Bay of Pigs.
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Sign-Off: The Chris Matthews Show
CHRIS MATTHEWS, host:
That's the show. Thanks for watching. See you next week.
