Guest Host: Chris Hayes
Guests: Howard Fineman, Jim Cantore, David Stockman, Rob Zerban, Chris Mooney, Jonathan Kay, Melissa Harris-Perry
CHRIS HAYES, GUEST HOST: Thanks, Chris.
And thanks to you at home for staying with us for the next hour.
Coming up—on THE LAST WORD—we‘ve got jobs, jobs, jobs. Where have they gone? Nothing coming from the Republican House.
The president visits these tornado-stricken areas in the Southeast.
And affirmative action under attack in Oklahoma.
All that on THE LAST WORD, up next.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(MUSIC)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Grandson in Iraq. What the hell are they fighting for when you‘re trying to take everything away from us?
HAYES (voice-over): Republicans are selling their plan to cut Medicare, cut spending and cut taxes for the rich. But their constituents aren‘t buying it.
REP. ED MARKEY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: The Republicans are trying to cut the retirement and health care benefits for grandma.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know anything about Medicare?
REP. PAUL RYAN ®, WISCONSIN: Well, I‘m not on it. No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That‘s what I‘m driving at.
MARKEY: Those are the town meetings they are having across the country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Americans aren‘t actually in favor of either tax increases or big spending cuts.
HAYES: The one place Republicans refuse to cut is getting a new boss.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Leon Panetta.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously, a huge rearrangement of American military leadership.
CHUCK TODD, NBC NEWS: Panetta is a Democratic version, frankly, of Gates.
HAYES: As Republicans try to cut government, government is called to help.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We‘re just lucky to be alive.
OBAMA: The federal government will do everything we can to help you recover.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With these kinds of scenes, tire rims bent in half, huge signs that have been folded in half.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People are walking around in a daze.
OBAMA: In many places, the damage to homes and business is nothing short of catastrophic.
ANDREA MITCHELL, NBC NEWS: It‘s extraordinary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nowhere was the sense of loss greater than in Alabama.
BRIAN WILLIAMS, NBC NEWS: As of now, there are 280 Americans confirmed dead.
OBAMA: I dispatched Federal Emergency Management Agency Administrator Craig Fugate to Alabama.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FEMA officials are on the scene today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are talking about thousands of homes that have been destroyed.
OBAMA: We can‘t control when or where a terrible storm may strike.
But we can control how we respond to it.
HAYES: But Republicans can‘t talk about jobs when they were talking about this.
CHRIS MATTHEWS, “HARDBALL” HOST: It‘s embarrassing them to be surrounded by birthers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You got responsible people who are propagating these theories.
MITCHELL: “The New York Daily News” cover story which perhaps sums it all up.
MICHAEL SMERCONISH, RADIO HOST: People are turning away from the GOP.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I‘m talking about Huckabee and others, not just Trump.
MITCHELL: Tell me it‘s over.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HAYES: Good evening from Washington. I‘m Chris Hayes, sitting in for Lawrence O‘Donnell. And welcome to the post we have now seen Barack Obama‘s birth certificate era.
Remember when House Speaker John Boehner said this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: You know, the number one priorities for American people are cutting spending and creating jobs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: That was January 25th, 20 days after he swore into Congress as speaker of the House. Since then, House Republicans have devoted themselves to going after spending. Not the massive defense budget or ongoing wars. They have also gone after Obamacare, the EPA, Planned Parenthood, NPR, FEMA, and on and on and on.
But what about addressing the speaker‘s other number one priority, jobs? Which, by the way, according to the latest polling is the most important issue to Americans, along with the economy—more important think that the budget deficit. We learned today that since January, neither Speaker Boehner nor the president nor the Senate nor the Federal Reserve nor really anyone at all has done much to affect the jobs and economic outlooks.
Labor Department reports that last week, 429,000 people for new applications for new unemployment benefits. That‘s the highest since late January. Also, today, the Commerce Department reports the growth of the gross domestic product for the first quarter of this year failed to meet estimates, slowing to an annual rate of 1.8 percent. That‘s down from 3.1 percent last quarter.
So, it‘s no surprise when we hear this poll today. Only 40 percent of Americans approve of how President Obama is handling the economy. That‘s the lowest of his presidency. As for John Boehner, we learned that since he took over as speaker, his net approval rating has dropped 12 points to 42 percent.
Not everyone is doing poorly in this economy, mind you. Today, when national gas prices averaged $3.89, Exxon Mobil reported a first quarter profit of $10.7 billion with a B dollars, a 69 percent increase from this time last year. Royal Dutch Shell reported $6.3 billion in profits, a 30 percent increase from last year.
As for the stock market, it‘s doing just fine as well—thank you very much. With stock indexes hitting 2011 highs.
So, how do you explain the bifurcated economic reality we continue to face, in which a small set of powerful economic interests are bathing in cash while most of the rest of the country struggles to get by? And what do they mean for President Obama and congressional Republicans?
Joining me now, former Republican congressman and director of the Office of Management and Budget in the Reagan administration, David Stockman. Also, senior political editor for “The Huffington Post” and MSNBC political analyst, Howard Fineman.
Gentlemen, great to have you here.
HOWARD FINEMAN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Good to be here.
DAVID STOCKMAN, FORMER REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN: Good to be here.
HAYES: I want to start off listening to Ben Bernanke who gave this first-ever Federal Reserve press conference yesterday—big deal. And let‘s take a listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN BERNANKE, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: Indirectly, of course, to the extent we can help the economy recover, and help job creation proceed, then some of the people who get jobs will be those who have been out of work for a long time. That being said, we don‘t have any tools for targeting long-term unemployment specifically. We can just try to make the labor market work better, broadly speaking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: This is in a response to a question, I believe, from “The New York Times” about long-term unemployment.
Mr. Stockman, what is your sense of that answer from Ben Bernanke. If the Fed isn‘t going to be the one that gets job growth back and Congress and the White House have sort of left the playing field—then what are we left with?
STOCKMAN: Well, first, let me say, I thought that answer was pathetic, lame. It shows that the Fed chairman doesn‘t have a clue as to why our economy has been failing, not just for the last few months of non-recovery but for the last 10 years.
And the reason it‘s failed, and the evidence is clear—last month, we had 130.7 million payroll jobs. And if you check the record, you‘ll see we also have that same number in November 1999. So, for 12 years, several business cycles, serial bubbles, the Fed taking the economy up and down, we have gone nowhere. We have not created one net job. And if you look at the composition, it‘s even worse, because we‘ve got about 10 percent of our middle class jobs.
Now, I blame the Fed for the dire condition of the U.S. economy, because it‘s driven the interest rate to zero. It‘s offered free money to Wall Street over and over and over, a massive invitation to speculate. And that‘s exactly what we have going again, a massive speculation with free money from the Fed, and everything from cotton futures to currencies to the Russell 2000, when even Bernanke mentioned by name, hit an all-time record today when we have Main Street still flat on its back.
So, if we want to begin to even lay out the path to something more constructive for the future, it has to start with fundamental change of policy at the Fed, and extracting the Fed from the grip of Wall Street because as I see it today, the Fed is entirely a tool of Wall Street, and it‘s simply generating speculative windfall gains to a very small number of people in our society, while the rest struggle with this mess that we have.
HAYES: Howard, I want your take on the politics. By the way, if you‘re playing THE LAST WORD bingo at home and you had the Russell 2000 in the first five minutes of the show, you win.
Howard, I want you to respond to this poll today out from—which says 29 percent of people, 29 percent of people consider us in a depression right now. What does that mean for the political dynamics for the White House, for congressional incumbents of both parties?
FINEMAN: Well, firs of all, let me say, it‘s fascinating to listen to David, who I have covered and listened to for a long time, going all the way back to the Reagan years. He is sounding like the populist guy.
HAYES: He sounds like you‘re writing from “The Nation” magazine.
FINEMAN: And I think that‘s very interesting. And indicative of the big problem here that he‘s talking about. All that money was created out of nothing. But it‘s money that could have been used if properly directed to the United States, to Main Street, to loans.
We rescued banks, but the banks didn‘t turn around and rescue people. We created money for housing, but didn‘t put it in the right places. We created money for investment, but didn‘t put them into the United States.
Now, everybody loves the free market. But if you‘re going to create that much money, you‘ve got to find a way to spend it here. And I think that‘s what David is saying, and I think that‘s very, very important.
But the reason 1/3 of the American people think they are in a depression is that not, they haven‘t seen any of that money. They haven‘t seen any of that money in any way, shape or form. That‘s just simple.
HAYES: I want to stay with you on the politics on this for a moment because we were talking this morning in the production call and said, you know, the conversation in Washington is like, if you go camping and you‘re in the middle, you pitch a tent in the middle of the forest being consumed by a forest fire and you start arguing the tent about who‘s going to drive on the way home or what color the tent is, or who didn‘t bring the fort, and it‘s unbelievable to me how absent the jobs reality is from the conversation in Washington.
Are you surprised by that?
FINEMAN: Well, I‘m not surprised by it because it‘s difficult right now to get immediate results from. That‘s part of the problem.
The president doesn‘t want to necessarily highlight the unemployment rate because they can‘t pound the table better. Now, he‘s been president for a while, OK? So, the more he focuses on the most glaring problem that we have, the more it begs the question of what kind of job he‘s been doing. And by the way, he‘s at his lowest level of job performance.
So, the natural thing now for somebody two years into office is to, you know, talk more, shall we say systemically, OK?
Now, the Republicans, they want to talk about spending cuts because it‘s a nice big abstract thing that plays into the small government ideology of the base of the Republican Party. And they don‘t want to talk about the immediate effects of the budget cuts they don‘t really have the guts to talk about, because that will cost jobs.
HAYES: Right.
FINEMAN: And not just federal jobs, not lazy federal workers, but we‘re talking about firemen and policemen, and people in the community, local people who also need jobs. So, there‘s a perverse incentive not to talk about the main thing that‘s at the center of the problem.
HAYES: David, you served in Congress as a member of the Republican Party. You were director of OMB, part of the famous before my colleague William Greider, who wrote about the lessons you learned when you came to Washington. In watching this Republican class come to Washington, what do you make of their performance so far?
STOCKMAN: Well, it‘s very disconcerting. When it comes to this anti-spending rhetoric, the Republicans are all hat and no cattle, as they say in Texas. When you look at what they have actually proposed, the entire defense and security budget, $700 billion, is taken off the table, apparently because they have to kiss the ring of the neocon bishops who would otherwise not support the plan. Then they take all of Social Security, all of Medicare, off the table, $1.4 trillion for the next 10 years.
When you do that and you say that taxes can‘t be raised out of religious principle, then you‘re left with the safety net. And so, they take out a meat cleaver and make unbelievably deep and unrealistic and untenable cuts, even they must know that, in the safety net and that turns the fiscal debate where we should be getting engagement between the two parties into what I called the other day the beginning of a class war.
And it‘s really unfortunate because I believe we don‘t have that much time to address our real fiscal problem, a we‘re not heading a ditch, in to a ditch where the president saying tax the top 2 percent, when everybody is going to have to pay higher taxes, the Republicans are saying balance the budget on the back of the poor, which isn‘t going to happen and shouldn‘t happen. And that‘s the dilemma we‘re in right now.
HAYES: David Stockman, thank you so much for your time. Howard Fineman, great discussion. I wish we could keep it going.
FINEMAN: All I have to say is wow
HAYES: I know.
FINEMAN: -- on David stockman. OK, it‘s amazing.
HAYES: This is where we are, folks. David Stockman, Howard Fineman, thank you both. I really appreciate it.
FINEMAN: Thank you.
STOCKMAN: Thank you.
HAYES: The president‘s planning a visit to Alabama tomorrow to see the devastation from massive tornadoes that took out entire communities. Our team of NBC reporters has the very latest coming up.
Plus, the Medicare backlash hits the man behind the plan. We‘ll talk about Paul Ryan‘s town hall trouble with the Democrat who wants to take his job.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HAYES: Nearly 300 dead, the Southeast is still in shock tonight after an onslaught of tornadoes not seen in decades. The latest from our team of NBC News reporters, next.
And later, a Republican lawmaker in Oklahoma says affirmative action has to go because African-Americans just don‘t work as hard as white people. Seriously. Melissa Harris-Perry will join me to discuss.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: In a matter of hours, these deadly tornadoes, some of the worst that we‘ve seen in decades, took mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, friends, and neighbors, even entire communities. Others are injured, and some are still missing. And in many places, the damage to homes and businesses is nothing short of catastrophic. And we stand with every American affected by this disaster in the days and weeks to come.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The devastating storms across the Southeast killed at least 280 people in six states. In the hard-hit town of Tuscaloosa, Alabama, one witness said the devastation was, quote, “nothing that even Hollywood has imagined.”
Whether experts say some tornadoes were a mile wide with a violent power and force only seen in one out of every 100 twisters. President Obama is planning a visit to Alabama tomorrow to see the damage first-hand.
NBC News has a team of reporters in the Southeast.
We begin with Weather Channel meteorologist Jim Cantore in Tuscaloosa.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM CANTORE, WEATHER CHANNEL (voice-over): This is the moment one of the massive tornadoes ripped through Tuscaloosa.
Student Chris England could hardly catch his breath as the funnel approached—just one of many that touched down in states across the south overnight. Buildings flattened, cars tossed around like toys, entire communities gone. At least 195 lives lost in Alabama, 36 in Tuscaloosa alone.
WALT MADDOX, TUSCALOOSA, ALABAMA MAYOR: We have neighborhoods that have basically been removed from the map. We have businesses that will no longer be able to engage in commerce.
CANTORE: Those who rode out the storm, like college student Justin Johnson, realize they are lucky to be alive.
JUSTIN JOHNSON, TORNADO SURVIVOR: I went outside, opened the door, and it just—I just started crying. That‘s the only thing you could do.
CANTORE: It hit in Ringgold, Georgia, without warning. First responders were on the scene quickly, but no one was prepared for this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It‘s something like out of a movie. It just doesn‘t seem real at this point. Rooftops on apartment buildings in Georgia and all across the region peeled off like sardine cans. At least 14 killed here.
Mississippi looks like a war zone, more than 30 dead here. Rescuers continue to search for survivors. Not even the Smithville Cemetery is spared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were branches falling out of the sky before we even knew the tornado was coming.
CANTORE: As funnels like this extraordinary film chaser material from Philadelphia and Mississippi touched down, many complained that warning sirens were quiet. Some complained that only a few TV stations were able to give people time enough to take cover.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We saw just a mass of people walking around with a stunned look on their face as this caught everyone by surprise.
CANTORE: This storm left floodwaters in Virginia, Tennessee, and Maryland. Tens of thousands displaced.
In Alabama, as many as 1 million people are without power. Houses have been taken right down to their foundations. Fourteen hundred National Guardsmen have been mobilized.
President Obama has declared a state of emergency in Alabama. He will travel here tomorrow in order to survey the damage first hand.
OBAMA: We can‘t control when or where a terrible storm may strike. But we can control how we respond to it. And I want every American who has been affected by this disaster to know that the federal government will do everything we can to help you recover.
CANTORE: Devastated residents hope help comes quickly, as this entire region reels from the worst outbreak of tornadoes in nearly 40 years.
Jim Cantore, NBC News, Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM TRANG (ph), NBC NEWS: I‘m Tom Trang (ph) in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
The massive tornado a mile-wide tore through here at a busy time, as people came home from work and students from school.
Tuscaloosa is home to the University of Alabama -- 95,000 people live here, 30,000 at the university alone.
JUSTIN JOHNSON, TORNADO SURVIVOR: Words can‘t even describe the feeling that you go through when you open that door. And just everything is just a disaster.
STRANG: Thirty-six are confirmed dead. Among them: three students from the college—all friends of Jessie Stickland.
JESSIE STICKLAND, VICTIM‘S FRIEND: This is my friend Scott.
TRANG: Their house ripped right off its slab.
STICKLAND: His favorite hat.
TRANG: Today, Strickland sifted through the rubble finding her friend Scott‘s shirt.
STICKLAND: There‘s nothing you can say. Nothing that‘s going to fix this or make it better or bring them back.
TRANG: Across the street, 22-year-old Angela Smith says she‘s lucky she can retrieve what‘s left of her home. Smith hid in the closet with her dog when the tornado hit.
(on camera): Were you praying and what were you praying for?
ANGELA SMITH, TORNADO SURVIVOR: I was praying. I said, dear Lord, just please keep me safe. That‘s the only thing I could do.
TRANG (voice-over): Smith and her husband got married just four days ago. The newly weds are now among thousands dealing with disaster.
SMITH: There‘s a reason why this happens to people. You just pick up the pieces and keep moving.
TRANG: Search and rescue efforts will continue through the night, as the city tries to figure out how to rebuild.
Tom Trang, NBC News, Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HAYES: Still ahead: with Republicans at home in their districts, more angry voters are asking some tough questions about the Republican plan to end Medicare. We‘ll talk to the Democrat challenging Congressman Paul Ryan for his seat, coming up.
And even after President Obama releases his long form birth certificate—that is still not enough for the true believers. The science behind why some conspiracy theories just won‘t die still ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HAYES: Coming up next: Angry voters are telling Congressman Paul Ryan exactly what they think of his plan to kill Medicare. We‘ll talk to the man vying for Ryan‘s seat ahead on THE LAST WORD.
And the fight over affirmative action in Oklahoma will be in the hands of voters. And one Republican lawmaker is now apologizing for her racist comments.
The politics, theory, and practice of the mythological level playing field, ahead with Melissa Harris-Perry.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HAYES: In the spotlight tonight, grandma. The Democrats plan to keep Republican Congressman Paul Ryan‘s hands off of her. Ryan‘s district in Wisconsin has long been considered a lost cause for Democrats, who have offered up sacrificial lambs in losing elections since Ryan won his seat in 1998.
This year, they are pouring the party‘s full resources into his next opponent, and they are starting early. Small business owner Rob Zerban has already announced his intention to end the political career of the Republican rising star and stop Ryan‘s plan to turn Medicare into a voucher program.
Zerban has launch a website asking supporters to sign a petition telling Paul Ryan to, quote, “take his hands off our grandmas,” saying, “after taking contributions from health care lobbyists, Paul Ryan now wants to empower insurance companies instead of our seniors.”
Zerban‘s campaign comes at a moment and in a place that many progressives are hoping will spark a national movement. Wisconsin protests against Governor Scott Walker‘s plan to eliminate collective bargaining for employees have turned into recall efforts against Republican state lawmakers.
And Congressman Ryan said that attendance at his town hall meetings is exceeding the numbers he saw during the 2009 health care town halls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PAUL RYAN ®, WISCONSIN: We‘re taxing our employers, our businesses, a lot more than our foreign competitors are taxing theirs. The international average for the corporate tax rate is 25 percent. Ours is 35 percent. Hey, come on. Everybody—
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let him talk!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Liar!
RYAN: Let me—if you‘re yelling, I just want to ask you to leave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: So are we seeing the next stage in the progresses counter-movement to the Tea Party wave of discontent that powered the Republican party back into control of the House?
Across the country, Republicans are now on the receiving end of political tactics they pioneered, facing angry constituents who openly question talking points and the radical schemes hatched inside the Beltway.
Joining me now is Rob Zerban, Democratic candidate for Republican Congressman Paul Ryan‘s seat in Wisconsin, making his I believe national television debut.
Thank you so much, Rob. I really appreciate it.
ROB ZERBAN (D-WI), SEEKING DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION: Thank you for having me.
HAYES: First, tell me about your district. I was looking at the numbers of it, and I was kind of surprised today. It‘s the first district. And Ryan‘s won quite easily. And I think it‘s considered a safe seat. But if I‘m not mistaken, Obama won in 2008, isn‘t that right?
ZERBAN: That‘s correct. Yeah. He won—the district goes from—the west part is where Janesville, all the way east to Kenosha (ph), and it contains Racine as well.
HAYES: And what has motivated you to think that you have a shot, after trouncing after trouncing after trouncing against Democratic opponents in Ryan‘s career in Congress?
ZERBAN: Well, we have seen Paul Ryan represent special interests, gas and oil companies, insurance sump companies. And I think it‘s time that we have some real representation for the actual constituents of the First Congressional District, as opposed to special interest.
And the budget that Ryan—the Ryan budget is just icing on the cake as far as the amount of voter discontent in the First Congressional District.
HAYES: Are you surprised by what you‘re seeing, in terms of people showing up at these town halls angry about the plan to end Medicare that Ryan has spearheaded? Is this coming as a surprise to you? Or have you sort of sensed that there was this sort of discontent already in the district?
ZERBAN: I‘m not surprised by it. The proposal is so unpopular, you know. Taxing or reducing the taxes on the wealthiest and then balancing the budgets on the backs of those who will need Medicare is just a wrong proposal. And I‘m not at all surprised by the reaction.
HAYES: I am wondering if you think the—I‘d like you to comment a little bit about the sort of demographic bait and switch that the Republicans are pulling here. One of the things that‘s really striking is when you look at people that are attending a lot of these town halls, you see people who are older than 55 often. And they‘re angry.
And the response from Ryan in one of his town halls and Republicans around the country is don‘t worry, we‘re not changing things for you. And I wonder what you make of that argument. A, what it says about that plan, and, B, whether it‘s resonating.
ZERBAN: Well, I don‘t think it is resonating. I think you‘re seeing seniors who are actually on Medicare and you‘re seeing people who would eventually be taking advantage of this program, and they are all speaking out against it.
In fact, I was just out in Janesville yesterday meeting with a constituent. And this is Paul Ryan‘s home town. And this gentleman told me how he has actually voted for Paul Ryan in every election. But this time, he just can‘t do it.
And he‘s hearing this from his friends. They just have a feeling that Paul Ryan has gotten so out of touch with the Wisconsin voters and what‘s important to them, that they just can‘t support him anymore.
HAYES: Finally, I want to ask you what the economic situation and the jobs picture looks like in the district. I know that there have been auto plants in the district. Some of those have been decimated over time, particularly even in the last several years. What is the job situation that the members—the constituents in the district are facing?
ZERBAN: Well, it‘s pretty bad, Chris. We‘ve seen the loss of the Janesville GM plant, the Chrysler plant close down. We have lost jobs there.
Paul Ryan has a credibility problem. In 1998, he campaigned as the
paycheck protection candidate. And he‘s been anything but. We have seen a
mass exodus of jobs from the First Congressional District. And I actually
I like to refer to him as Pink Slip Paul.
HAYES: Rob Zerban, thanks so much for joining us, running against Paul Ryan in Wisconsin‘s first district. Appreciate it.
ZERBAN: Thank you. >
HAYES: Coming up, Birthers have seen the president‘s birth certificate and scientists have conclusively shown that humans are warming the planet. But why do some people refuse to believe the truth?
And a state legislator has apologized for saying black people don‘t work as hard as white people, but she‘s not apologizing for the legislation that led her to make that statement. That‘s ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, “THE COLBERT REPORT”: Full maiden name of mother, Stanley Ann Dunham. Stanley? Does that mean she was a dude? Obama had two dads? Which one was his biological father?
At this point, we can‘t be certain who this man‘s parents are, which means I have no proof that he is even a black man. He could be white. And if that‘s the case, I don‘t understand why we‘re questioning his legitimacy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Last night, Steven Colbert joked about Birthers still not being satisfied with the long form birth certificate released by the president yesterday. Satire these days is never too far from the truth. A snap robo-poll done by “Survey USA” shows that 18 percent of respondents still have doubts about where the president was born. Another 10 percent say the long form version released yesterday is a forged document.
At some level, I got to say, these are heartening numbers, because frankly I thought they‘d be higher. Still, I won‘t be surprised if we see those numbers creep back up as the forces of denial regroup, and launch their inevitable bevy of conspiracy theories about the document‘s authenticity.
At the end of the day, the Birther issue is not the biggest deal in the world. People believe all kinds of crazy stuff. The real issue is the relationship our public life and political debates bear to reality, how facts link up to policy.
That has become disturbingly un-moored over the last decade. The issue of the president‘s origins is one thing. The reality is global warming quite another. There seem to be the same dynamics at play in both. Former White House Spokesman Robert Gibbs said yesterday “there are no more arbiters of truth, so whatever you can prove factually, somebody else can find something else to point to it with enough ferocity to get people to believe it. We‘ve crossed some Rubicon into the unknown.”
Well said. Case in point, the same day President Obama released his long form birth certificate, Oklahoma State House approved a Birther bill, requiring presidential candidates to provide proof of citizenship to get on the ballot.
Joining me now, Jonathan Kay, managing editor of Canada‘s “National Post” newspaper and author of “Among the Truthers: a Journey through America‘s Growing Conspiracist Underground,” and Chris Mooney, science and political journalist, and author of “We Can‘t Handle the Truth” in the current issue of “Mother Jones.”
Both are excellent reads. I recommend them highly.
Jonathan, let me start with you. For the new book, you spent three years immersed in the world of conspiracy theorists. And I wonder what you ended up concluding about what powers them, what draws people to them and keeps people attached to them.
JONATHAN KAY, “NATIONAL POST”: Well, ultimately, conspiracy theories are a way to reconcile people‘s ideology with reality. It‘s a bridge between the world they want to be and the world that exists. So in the case of the Birthers, there are a lot of people who just cannot get their head around the fact that Americans elected a somewhat left-wing president. And it doesn‘t jibe with their view of the United States. It doesn‘t jive with their view of the way reality should be.
So they have created a sort of mythology that allows them to believe it didn‘t really happen, that Obama is actually illegitimate, that all they have to do is unmask him as a sort of hoax president and history will be that set right.
It allows them to, as I say, reconcile the world they want, which is a right-wing America with a right-wing president, with the world that actually exists, with Obama in the White House.
HAYES: I like this phrase, “the bridge from ideology to reality.” Chris, in the article you wrote for “Mother Jones” sort of about the science of belief formation—there‘s a lot research that backs up that premise, right?
CHRIS MOONEY, “MOTHER JONES”: There is a science of why we deny science, right? There are facts about why we can‘t accept facts. Basically, it‘s a theory called motivated reasoning. What it does is it takes modern neuroscience and shows how our processes of reasoning are actually driven by emotion. And we make up our minds subconsciously before we are even actually consciously thinking what we think. And then we are down a path and we‘re already rationalizing.
HAYES: And so the rational thought is actually this sort of this retroactive construction. So here‘s the question I have for both of you: you know, the big question I think is—and the profound one is are conspiracy theories a difference in kind or a difference in degree from regular belief formation?
I mean, are we—because at the end of the day, people who are watching this are trusting that I‘m not lying to them. And when I read a newspaper or when I read the Intergovernmental Panel Climate Change report from the U.N., I trust that the whole thing isn‘t a fabricated hoax.
So how different is—John, maybe you can answer this. Is there something that delineates conspiracist belief formulations from sort of normal belief formation, with all of its biases, et cetera?
KAY: Yes, there is. And that is the fact that if you take a normal, rational person and you give them contrary evidence to what they believe, they will re-examine their original hypothesis. Whereas if you take a conspiracy theorists and give them contrary information, they will always simple expand the circle of conspirators.
So, for instance, in the case of the Birthers, if you way, well, you know, the secretary of health and the governor, they have all said the birth certificate is legitimate, they will simply draw a bigger circle around the conspiracy and say, well, they‘re in on it too; the media is in on it too; the justice system is in on it too.
It‘s a pathological way of thinking, which is utterly different from rational thought. I actually compare it to religion, in the sense that if you‘re a committed Christian or a committed Jew or a committed Muslim, it doesn‘t matter what your faith is. If someone gives you contrary evidence to your beliefs, you wont simply say, well, I guess I‘ll re-examine my religious beliefs. You‘ll say I take this on faith. And that‘s the way I believe.
Conspiracy theories, in many ways, are a religious faith for a secular age.
HAYES: Chris, that sounds—everything that you just said reminds me somewhat uncannily of some of the social science results that you cite in your article, which is that you do give people confounding information, and they simply reassert the original error.
MOONEY: I would say that it is just an extreme version of something to which we are all susceptible. When people read my piece, they said this s kind of like arguing with a my spouse. This is kind of like arguing with a member of my family who has different politics. They will never change their mind. They will never change their mind.
It‘s the same process, but it goes farther. And some of us learn checks on the process. Journalists are supposed to learn checks. Scientists are supposed to learn checks. But even those groups, as we know, fall all the time for biases.
HAYES: So here‘s my question—let‘s say there‘s some sort of background. John, you sort of go through a lot of psychological dispositions that might lead people to conspiracist thinking. You talk about our just general biases and the way sort of our brains work.
The question is, is Robert Gibbs right that the nature of American public life at this moment makes these problems worse, exacerbates them instead of mitigates them?
KAY: I think the big problem is the technology. Because this has always been part of human psychology. The problem is now technology, in particular the media on the Internet, allow people to inhabit their own reality on websites. The conspiracy theorists that I interviewed don‘t watch shows like this. They don‘t watch the mass media.
Typically, they are in their own little self contained Internet bubble of people who think like they do. So in their mind, they are not outsiders because they are surrounded every day, virtually, by people who think the way they do.
This has never existed in American society prior to the Internet. Conspiracy theorists always had to go outside, interact with people, turn on the mass media, read a newspaper eventually, because that‘s the only way to get news.
And so they were confronted with the fact that they were outsiders. That reality doesn‘t exist now. They can go into a custom made reality, inhabited only by people who share their esoteric beliefs. That is new.
HAYES: Chris, is it your sense of the Internet—this is like knock number one on the Internet, right, that it‘s sort of reinforcing this cocooning, this sort of knowledge cocooning.
MOORE: It‘s a role, but I don‘t think it‘s the only factor. I think there‘s a reality gap between the parties. Democrats and Republicans believe different things about a lot of issues. And it turns out Republicans are more likely to wrong. We can talk about that.
But one of the factors is, you know, everyone has their own experts now. There‘s been a 30, 40-year campaign to build right wing think tanks to fight back against academic experts. And so, you know, everyone can say I‘ve got a PHD who thinks this. And for every PHD, there‘s an equal and opposite PHD.
HAYES: Finally, in the vaunted tradition of cable news, I want to give each of you 30 seconds to say what we can do to combat it. Because that strikes me, in the case of global warming particularly, which is a very, very high stakes conspiracy theory, that a majority of Republicans out there share—John, what did you learn about how you break—you sort of break this kind of vicious cycle that conspiracy theorists are under?
KAY: Well, ultimately, you have to teach people that conspiracism, which is what I call this way of thinking, is akin to any other pathological way of thinking. We have taught ourselves to get around racism, for the most part. We‘ve taught ourselves to get around homophobia and sexism in some cases.
We have to teach people that conspiracism is a way of thinking that is pathological, and you have to exercise your mental self discipline to try to get around it.
HAYES: Chris, you get THE LAST WORD on this.
MOONEY: Well, it seems like emotions are what drive us down the wrong path. So we need to de-emotionalize issues. We often, if we want to change somebody‘s mind, if not hit them with facts, we have to hit them with a different way of thinking about them that is more constant with what they feel is the way the world should work. It‘s a different strategy.
HAYES: Chris Mooney, science journalist, has a great piece in “Mother Jones,” “The Science of Why We Don‘t Believe in Science.” John Kay from “The National Post,” author of a great new book called “Among the Truthers.”
Gentlemen, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Still ahead, the fight over affirmative action turns ugly in Oklahoma, after one Republican lawmaker says African-Americans just don‘t work as hard as white people. Melissa Harris-Perry joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HAYES: Controversy was already brewing last night in Oklahoma when the state‘s House of Representatives approved a ballot measure which, if approved by voters next year, would eliminate affirmative action across the entire state government. And then Republican State Representative Sally Kern decided to pour gasoline on the fire.
You may remember Kern‘s warning three years ago, quote, “the homosexual agenda is a bigger threat to America than terrorism.”
This time during the affirmative action debate, Kern decided that
women and African-Americans aren‘t making less money because of
discrimination. Kern concluded they simply aren‘t working as hard as white
me
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SALLY KERN, OKLAHOMA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: We have heard tonight already that in prison, there‘s more black people. Yes, there are. And that‘s tragic. It‘s tragic that our prisons here in Oklahoma, what are they, 99 percent occupancy.
But the other side of the story perhaps we need to consider, is this just because they‘re black that they‘re in prison? Or could it be because they didn‘t want to work hard in school? And white people oftentimes don‘t want to work hard in school or Asians oftentimes.
But a lot of times, that‘s what happens. I taught school for 20 years. And I saw a lot—a lot of people of color who didn‘t want to work as hard. They wanted it given to them.
As a matter of fact, I had one student that said, I don‘t need to study. You know why? The government is going to take care of me. That‘s kind of revealing there.
You see, women usually don‘t want to work as hard as a man because—
I mean, wait a minute—now listen to me—women—hang on. Women tend to think a little bit more about their family, wanting to be at home more time, wanting to have a little bit more leisure time. That‘s all I mean.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Joining me now, MSNBC contributor Melissa Harris-Perry, associate professor of politics and African-American studies at Princeton University. Melissa, first of all, I think it‘s clear that Kern should stay on the teleprompter. But I want to start because she apologized today. And so I want to just read that quickly.
It says, “I want to humbly apologize for my statements last night about African-Americans and women. I believe that our government should not provide preferences based on race or gender. I misspoke while trying to convey this point last night during debate.
Women are some of the hardest workers in the world. My husband is a pastor of a diverse inner city church. And the way that my words came out last night is certainly not my true spirit.”
So, Melissa, this is kind of our standard, like, Koublera (ph) Stations of the Cross arc of these things. You say something horribly offensive and racist and then apologize for it.
I never know quite how I‘m supposed to feel at the end of it. I want to tell you to tell me how I should feel about this apology.
MELISSA HARRIS-PERRY, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: Oh, my goodness, I can imagine that you need me how to feel because you must be so exhausted from working so hard all day. And I have clearly been napping as a black woman.
(LAUGHTER)
HARRIS-PERRY: Look, you know, I appreciate that it is both painful, irritating, surprising, in 2011 to hear an elected official say, you know, those kinds of statements, you know, in a state house, in the legislature. But let‘s stay focused. The racism that we should care about, the racial inequality, the racial anxiety we should have is about that bill, not about that legislator.
So certainly her words help to give us some evidence about what are the impulses, what‘s the nature behind that bill. But the real issue is, that there is an attempt here to remove a policy that is critically needed by people of color to have a level playing field on which to do business, go to school, and have opportunities for contracts.
HAYES: I want to talk about the substance of the bill, and I want to give what seems like it could be the best possible argument in favor of this sort of thing, which is the sort of Clarence Thomas/Ward Connolly line of argumentation. And there‘s a Republican sponsor in the state who is African-American, American Indian heritage, who basically says that affirmative action creates this sort of stigma, this double standard that‘s fundamentally unfair to people of color.
Now, what do you think of that argument? How should we think about that argument?
HARRIS-PERRY: Well, it‘s an odd one. I mean, the idea—the idea that the stigma of blackness comes from affirmative action and not from slavery, Jim Crow, you know, histories of segregated housing—I mean it‘s odd. But let‘s also just look very closely here at the facts.
My colleague at Princeton, Diva Pager (ph)), a sociologist, has brilliant research in her book “Marked.” And the research shows very clearly that an African-American man with no prison record, none, is less likely to get a job interview than a white man with a prison record.
HAYES: An identical resume, I should say, in that study.
HARRIS-PERRY: That‘s right, identical resumes. The only thing being different is the identifiability of the race of the candidate and whether or not they have a prison record. Now that tells me that racism is alive and well in its most old-fashioned forms.
Take that out of the equation and let‘s just look at how it structurally reproduces itself. The fact that, for example, we have legacy admissions to universities what were once all-white universities. So even if you‘re not actively working against black admissions there, the simple fact that there are legacy admissions in a place where everybody who would be legacy would most likely also be white tells us that there are all of these structural elements as well as these active ones.
So we have to policy that intervenes in it. And the notion that the stigma comes from the intervening justice based fairness policy is I think really troubling.
HAYES: Finally, Melissa, I wonder what you—why you think that affirmative action seems to be kind of creeping back into the center of national debate? We‘re seeing it now with the conversation about Barack Obama, why he got into Harvard Law. And we‘re seeing it in this Oklahoma bill. What do you chalk that up to?
It did seem like it had sort of moved out of center of American political discourse for a while.
HARRIS-PERRY: Remember that right after President Obama was elected, much the discourse on the right and left was this language that now black folks will achieve more because if they can see it, they can achieve it. And so it‘s as though we can get rid of the structures because with President Obama in, all we have to do is imagine that we too could be president, and all of the bad stuff, and all of the history will fall away.
HAYES: Melissa Harris-Perry of “The Nation Magazine,” my “Nation,” and MSNBC, Princeton University. Thank you so much.
HARRIS-PERRY: Thanks, Chris.
HAYES: That will do it for this Thursday edition of THE LAST WORD.
You can follow the show all day online by going to TheLastWord.MSNBC.com. I‘m Chris Hayes. You can read more of my work at TheNation.com or follow me on Twitter @ChrisLHayes. “THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW” is up next. Good evening, Rachel.
END
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