Guests: C.J. Karamargin, Jeffrey Rogers, Rep. Emanuel Cleaver, David Frum,
Steven Cates, Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, Col. Bill Badger
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC ANCHOR: Now, it‘s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O‘Donnell.
Good evening, Lawrence.
LAWRENCE O‘DONNELL, HOST: Thanks, Rachel.
Words don‘t kill people, bullets do. Bullets sold for 22 cents apiece at Wal-Mart and used in guns made in Austria, where this man would never be allowed to buy a gun, and sold in Arizona where anyone can buy a gun, including a homicidal maniac intent on killing a congresswoman who supported his right to buy a gun.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(MUSIC)
BRIAN WILLIAMS, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: It all starts here in this perfectly ordinary suburban shopping center parking lot.
CHRIS JANSING, NBC NEWS: Six people are dead, 14 hurt, and a nation scarred.
O‘DONNELL (voice-over): Thirty-one shots fired, six dead, including a federal judge. Fourteen wounded, including a congresswoman shot through the head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: President Obama and Michelle Obama who will lead a moment of silence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We‘re not out of the woods yet. We‘re slightly more optimistic.
O‘DONNELL: All because this man bought this gun.
ANDREA MITCHELL, NBC NEWS: Twenty-two-year-old Jared Loughner.
ED SCHULTZ, “THE ED SHOW” HOST: The judge said he‘s a danger to the community and offered him to be held without bail.
MITCHELL: Facing five federal counts including murder and attempted assassination.
KEITH OLBERMANN, “COUNTDOWN” HOST: Envelope found at his house apparently naming Giffords as target for assassination.
O‘DONNELL: Blame is spreading beyond the gunman.
CHUCK TODD, NBC NEWS: Reopened criticism of the way Sarah Palin targeted Gabby Giffords.
REP. GABRIELLE GIFFORDS (D), ARIZONA: We‘re on Sarah Palin‘s targeted list. There‘s consequences to that action.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I‘m feeling bad for Sarah Palin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When she had the crosshairs over different district.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And didn‘t take it down until Saturday.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But to blame Sarah Palin, as some are doing, I think is very unfair to her.
CHRIS MATTHEWS, “HARDBALL” HOST: It seems to be Sarah Palin using gun play language.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don‘t retreat, instead reload.
REP. MICHELE BACHMANN ®, MINNESOTA: I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She‘s absolutely right that words have—
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Consequences.
SCHULTZ: The only person responsible for the shooting is the apparently, mentally deranged, sick young man. These guns are made to kill people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was in the hands of an evil person.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O‘DONNELL: Good evening from Los Angeles.
Two days after accused assassin Jared Lee Loughner fired point-blank into the back of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords‘ head, doctors say that they are cautiously optimistic about her recovery. Doctors are keeping her in a medically-induced coma that allows her to rest her brain, periodically lifting the sedation to perform tests. They say brain swelling at this point is the greatest threat.
Last March, Gabrielle Giffords spoke to MSNBC‘s “DAILY RUNDOWN” after her district office was vandalized following her health care vote.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIFFORDS: Our democracy is a light, a beacon, really, around the world, because we affect change at the ballot box and not because of these, you know, outbursts of violence in certain cases and the yelling. You know, change is important. It‘s a part of our process. But it‘s really important that we focus on the fact we have a democratic process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Giffords has just begun her third term after winning a close re-election. Her brother-in-law, astronaut Scott Kelly, heard about the shooting while he was working on the International Space Station.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SCOTT KELLY, GABRIELLE GIFFORDS‘ BROTHER-IN-LAW: First off, I‘d like to say we have a unique vantage point here aboard the International Space Station. As I look out the window, I see a very beautiful planet that seems very inviting and peaceful. Unfortunately, it is not. These days, we‘re constantly reminded of the unspeakable acts of violence and damage we can inflict on one another, not just with our actions but also with their irresponsible words. We‘re better than this. We must do better.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Joining me now are: C.J. Karamargin, Congresswoman Giffords‘ communications director, and Jeffrey Rogers, chairman of the Pima County Democratic Party.
C.J., you‘ve visited the congresswoman at the hospital. What can you tell us about what you‘ve seen there?
C.J. KARAMARGIN, REP. GIFFORDS‘ COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, signs are encouraging. The most encouraging sign was what happened yesterday when the congresswoman was asked to hold up two fingers. She did. And doctors have said that‘s a very good sign. It‘s a simple gesture but it‘s an important sign.
Among the staff, among the congresswoman‘s professional family, we had a discussion about whether it means the congresswoman was holding up a sign for peace and victory, and we decided it was both.
O‘DONNELL: Jeffrey Rogers, what has the climate been like in Democratic Party politics in Arizona? We‘ve heard a lot of talk over this weekend about people being afraid, about the threats that the congresswoman‘s office got earlier over the health care vote—people are going to spend a long time sorting out what really went through the mind of this assassin.
But what was your feeling before this happened in Arizona? Did you feel threatened? Did you have any sense of danger?
JEFFREY ROGERS, CHAIR, PIMA COUNTY DEM PARTY: Well, you must understand, there‘s a huge difference between Tucson and the rest of Arizona. I mean, some people call us sort of the Berkeley of Arizona. This is a very peaceful, peace loving, wonderful, quiet town. Even though it‘s over half a million people, it‘s still referred to as a small town by most folks around here.
And the Democrats are fairly well in control in Pima County and the city of Tucson. So, this is much different than the rest of the state. And we don‘t see the kind of sort of ugliness and vitriol down here in Tucson that we‘ve seen in the rest of the state—certainly not to the same extent and certainly not anywhere near the extent that we‘ve seen nationwide coming out of various other news outlets and radio shows.
O‘DONNELL: C.J., what was your sense of the threat level you were living in prior to this event?
KARAMARGIN: No, I don‘t think—I don‘t think we ever felt threatened. We did our jobs, do our jobs as public servants because this is what we want to do. The congresswoman has never been deterred by people who have made threats. And, you know, there have been various levels of threats.
The congresswoman was one of many members of Congress last year who held town hall meetings. Those were raucous, boisterous affairs.
Congresswoman Giffords charged right in. People were rude. People yelled. People came to listen. People came to learn. It ran the gamut.
I think things changed a little bit for us the day after the health care vote when after the congresswoman casts her vote, the door to her Tucson district office was shot out, we believe, by an air gun of some sort. I‘m not certain exactly if it was ever determined what.
But this is a rare occurrence, as Jeff noted. Things like this don‘t happen a lot in southern Arizona.
So, it—what happened then was a shock, but it—of course, it was nothing compared to what happened Saturday morning.
O‘DONNELLL: Let‘s listen to something else Congresswoman Gifford said on “THE DAILY RUNDOWN” about the political climate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIFFORDS: What I can say in the years that some of my colleagues have served, 20, 30 years, they have never seen it like this. We have to work out our problems by negotiating, working together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Jeff, did you get a sense from Congresswoman Giffords at any point that she felt something changing, especially after the attack on her office, that she felt maybe she needs to be more careful, maybe there‘s some steps you should be taking? Or was it just considered the attack on the office some kind of crazy high school vandalism incident?
ROGERS: I would say it was the latter. I didn‘t get any sense from her that she was in any way concerned for her own welfare. I mean, this is someone, who, when she came into a room, would light up the room with a big, broad smile and every—you couldn‘t—it was infectious. You couldn‘t be in the room with her without smiling along with her.
So, I didn‘t get that kind of impression. I would say that we did see a ratcheting up of tension here really right after President Obama was—and by here I mean all over the country and even in Arizona, right after the inauguration. I mean, the kind of rhetoric we saw elevated quite a bit to something I really don‘t think we‘d seen before. A little bit of that before the Oklahoma City bombing, but really nothing like that I had seen in my lifetime of being involved in politics, in public service.
So—and that kind of continued through, as we know, last summer. This sort of unusual rhetoric in the town halls in the summer of 2009, that is. So, I think we can trace a bit of a heightening of tensions back to just after the inauguration and a heightening of anger.
But that seemed more nationwide than it did here in Tucson. It seemed like Tucson was a little bit immune to that. And we saw a little bit of it at the town halls like C.J. was saying. But it just didn‘t like something that should be of great concern or would ever lead to anything as shocking at this.
O‘DONNELL: C.J., it is one thing to have your leader, your congresswoman, the head of your office, lying in grave condition in a hospital in Tucson. It is yet another to have a fellow staff member killed in the line of duty. I never thought I would use that phrase in relation to a congressional staffer, Gabe Zimmerman.
KARAMARGIN: You‘re right.
O‘DONNELL: Tell us about Gabe Zimmerman and tell us what it feels like to be on a staff where you actually ended up, without knowing it, risking your lives on Saturday.
KARAMARGIN: Yes. Gabe‘s death will leave a gaping hole in our office and in our community. You‘re so right about that phrase “killed in the line of duty.” That‘s a phrase we use for—of members of the armed forces or policemen and firemen who die in the line of duty.
He was a social worker—a social worker who died in the line of duty. It is incomprehensible to think someone who has dedicated his life to helping people—his short life. Gabe was 30 years old, planning a marriage.
Incomprehensible to think that someone who has dedicated his life to making the lives of others better would be face this kind of risk and threat. It‘s awful.
Speaker John Boehner spoke eloquently about this when he ordered the flags put at half-mast for Gabe Zimmerman. I listened to that the other morning and I couldn‘t stop crying. The speaker of the House was talking about my friend, this guy I worked out with, this guy I traveled to the inauguration with in January 2009. It was surreal.
On that trip to Washington, for example, Gabe and I visited the Lincoln Memorial. Gabe was a—he loved history. He loved American history. He didn‘t want to read the Lincoln Memorial until we read every single word of the Gettysburg address. It was a cold winter morning but Gabe was determined to do it because we were there.
That‘s the kind of guy Gabe was. He had boundless energy and he put that energy into his work.
Like many people on Congresswoman Giffords‘ staff, he considered it a privilege to work for someone as dedicated and outgoing and caring as Gabrielle Giffords. He will—so say that he will be missed is—I can‘t even capture how the office feels.
O‘DONNELL: C.J., you have our condolences on the loss of your friend, Gabe Zimmerman, and thank you for telling us more about him. It is just an astonishing loss. It‘s inconceivable to me that someone in that job could, on a Saturday morning, end up risking his life in a Safeway parking lot.
C.J. Karamargin, Congresswoman Giffords‘ communications director, and Jeffrey Rogers, chairman of the Democratic Party for Pima County—thank you both very much for your time tonight.
KARAMARGIN: Thank you.
ROGERS: You‘re quite welcome.
O‘DONNELL: Coming up: as news of the shooting surfaced, the immediate conversation was the impact of our overheated political discourse. But could something else be to blame?
And later, we‘ll talk to a college classmate of the gunman about what Jared Loughner was like.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: Coming up: violent language and imagery in our politics and in the media. What role, if any, did it play in Saturday‘s shootings? Why is the problem of gun control getting lost in the argument about our political rhetoric? That‘s ahead on THE LAST WORD.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have to tone down the rhetoric.
SHERIFF CLARENCE DUPNIK, PIMA COUNTY, ARIZONA: The vitriolic rhetoric that we hear day in and day out from people in the radio business—
RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: The sheriff of Pima County has made a fool of himself.
GLENN BECK, FOX NEWS: This man wasn‘t a right wing nutjob.
LIMBAUGH: If people on the right and Sarah Palin and so forth are responsible for all of this and this vitriol and rhetoric is so pitched, how come this isn‘t happening every day?
BECK: He also wasn‘t a left wing nutjob.
REP. DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ (D), FLORIDA: These fragile people who are mentally unstable that, you know, we just don‘t know when they are going to take those—that language literally.
DUPNIK: We need to do a little soul-searching.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
O‘DONNELL: Since Saturday‘s tragic shooting at an event for Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, which left six people dead and 14 wounded, many have been searching for someone or something to blame. One idea that both conservatives and liberals seem to be focused on is the recent angry political rhetoric. In fact, FOX News president, Roger Ailes, said after the shooting, “I told our guys, shut up, tone it down, make your argument intellectually. You don‘t have to do it with bombast. I hope the other side does that.”
But will toning down the rhetoric prevent crazy people from buying guns and bullets and going postal? Going postal. You know, we are the only country in the world that has a popular two-word phrase for crazy people buying guns and bullets and killing whoever they feel like killing. Try changing that rhetoric.
Joining me now: Missouri congressman and chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus, Emanuel Cleaver, along with former Bush speechwriter and founder of FrumForum.com, David Frum.
Congressman, what do you make of this discussion of the rhetoric? And do you share my concern that this rhetoric discussion is overpowering and keeping us away from a legislative discussion about what to do next on gun control to prevent this kind of behavior in the future?
REP. EMANUEL CLEAVER (D), MISSOURI: Well, there‘s no question that language has gotten out of control. The political discourse is toxic here in Washington. And I think we have exported it around the country.
We had someone shouting in the gallery this past week who had to be removed. I wanted to go up and apologize and say, look, why in the world should you be kicked out? You did nothing more than what members are doing on the floor.
Many members frankly come inside the chamber and then suffer from acute indiscretion in the manner in which they communicate.
So, I think the discourse is bad. It is—when you talk to the old-timer‘s, they‘ll tell you it‘s never been this bad. And so, I think that it would behoove all of us in public office to turn the volume down.
O‘DONNELL: David, immediately after the shooting, people started pointing to Sarah Palin‘s chart of the 20 targeted members of Congress that she wanted defeated in the last election.
But, you know, back in 2004, we eventually dug up the Democratic leadership committee had this bull‘s eye map on its site. Both sides have done this thing—this kind of thing in the past. Is this discussion of the rhetoric and of Sarah Palin‘s possible responsibility and all this stuff exactly what the Republicans actually should welcome in order to completely prevent any real discussion of their blocking of any kind of reasonable gun control in this country?
DAVID FRUM, FRUMFORUM.COM: That‘s a question with a lot of impact packed into it.
Look, I think the discussion of language is important. But we need to make clear as both you and the congressman has stressed—language did not motivate this killer. This man seems to be in a very advanced state of mental illness. Whatever language he was hearing is not the language they are speaking on FOX and MSNBC and the editorial pages of “The Wall Street Journal” or “The New York Times.” It‘s a different language.
He was moving under a different impetus. And we can all be very polite and people who have severe mental illness will lash out for their own—reasons of their own demons. And there are questions here, by the way, are mental health services work? Can we intervene more effectively? That‘s a different discussion.
The reason why extreme language is bad is not because it leads people to go on killing rampage. That‘s not who does killing rampage. It‘s bad because it prevents government from working well, from compromises being made, from results from being delivered. And it is—it‘s the impact on normal people of this extreme language, not the impact on crazy people, that‘s the problem.
O‘DONNELL: Let‘s listen to what Congresswoman Giffords said about being on Sarah Palin‘s target list back in March.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIFFORDS: We‘re on Sarah Palin‘s targeted list. But the thing is that the way she has it depicted is the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they got to realize there‘s consequences to that action.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Congressman Cleaver, wasn‘t this an opportunity for Sarah Palin to actually say, you know, gee, I wish we hadn‘t done it that way, and just kind of taken a higher road, just responded to this in a non-defensive crouch, the way she does? Everything she responds to, it‘s not my fault, and defensive. Couldn‘t she have taken another tone here that might have been really refreshing and change the nature of the dialogue right now?
CLEAVER: Sure, and I wish she had. I also wish, frankly, some Democrats would apologize for some of the language they have used. Maybe it was not violent language, but it was still out of place in its environment.
I agree with Mr. Frum. Look, the political climate in this country right now is one in which ideology trumps problem solving. And that‘s where we need to go.
I don‘t believe this man was inspired by language as such. He probably heard it and probably had some impact on it like it does all of us. But you know, we are feeding people, who in many instances are unstable a steady diet of vitriol.
An example of this, I led the prayer on the steps of the Capitol today with 300 or 400 staffers. I‘ve been on a couple of talk shows where we talked about civility.
I had a woman calling my office today screaming saying, he called us, I quote now, “racists,” unquote. Well, the word race or color never entered into the dialogue. But this woman obviously is disturbed and so, she hears what she wants to hear through her filtering system. And that‘s the danger of any kind of toxicity. We‘re going to have people who are going to go off the deep edge even when we don‘t say anything negative.
O‘DONNELL: David Frum, if Sarah Palin were as fortunate as George W. Bush was to have such good speechwriters, including yourself, what should she have said over the weekend about this?
FRUM: Well, I thought about it a lot over the weekend because she did face something very unfair. She faced a lot of accusations. She also faced an opportunity because unfairness is often an opportunity.
And I wrote out some eight points that I think she ought to have made that would have transformed this for her. Now, again, I want to stress—she did nothing wrong. She has nothing to do with this. It‘s not her fault. And it‘s very natural that her first impulse would be to say that in the face of these unfair accusations.
But people who want to be president have to do more than what is ordinary and usual. They have to be big. They have to be magnanimous. And so—I think she could have done.
I don‘t know, for example, you can‘t say, I know, I regret the way this thing looks now. I don‘t know why you can‘t be visible in the debate. Go to Arizona, lay a flower in front of the congresswoman‘s office. You don‘t have to make a speech. You don‘t have to insert yourself in the story, just do that simple thing.
Think about maybe the congresswoman‘s family blames you. And that‘s maybe totally unfair. And maybe that‘s the way they feel and they are suffering and grieving.
Reach out to them. Not to the whole country. Not to your Facebook audience. But it‘s people who might be angry to you for reasons that are natural but maybe unjust. Talk to them.
Think about what do you want your worst opponent to say about you and say that. You know, I never agreed with anything she said but you could se she thought about it carefully. Or, you know, she was a tough competitor but she was never mean. Think about what you want that person to say and then be that thing.
O‘DONNELL: Congressman Emanuel Cleaver, very quickly, any chance of any gun control action being taken in Congress as a result of this event?
CLEAVER: I doubt it. I‘ve not heard many of my colleagues talking about gun control. I think people are concerned about several things right now. First of all, the tragedy, families of those shot and wounded and our colleague, Gabby. And then secondly, I do think that, surprisingly, the question of turning down the volume has reached a level that we might see some change.
But in terms of the gun control, I‘ve not heard any talk about that.
Now, maybe something will surface later. But right now—
O‘DONNELL: If this can‘t stimulate gun control in this Congress, nothing can.
Congressman Emanuel Cleaver, Democrat from Missouri, and David Frum of the Frum Forum—thank you both very much for joining us tonight.
FRUM: Thank you.
CLEAVER: Good to be here with you.
O‘DONNELL: Coming up: we‘ll talk to one of the people who was not afraid of Jared Loughner at college and actually tried to befriend him.
And, later, in the wake of the shooting, the only politician proposing meaningful action is Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy. She‘ll join me on THE LAST WORD.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: According to one report, Jared Lee Loughner had a smirk on his face during his first court appearance this afternoon. A bump on his forehead a possible clue to the struggle to stop him from reloading and firing even more bullets Saturday morning.
Loughner spoke briefly today, telling the judge, “yes, I am Jared Lee Loughner.”
Along with the senseless ramblings on Youtube, we know Loughner tried and failed to join the Army after admitting repeatedly using marijuana. We know he was suspended in college in September after regularly disrupting classes, suspended and banned—banned to the point that he would not be allowed back unless a mental health professional confirmed he would pose no danger.
Steven Cates was in a poetry class with Jared Loughner for the five months of last year at Pima Community College. He joins me tonight from Tucson. Steven, we have heard from people who on the first day of being in a classroom with Jared Loughner felt threatened, felt he was actually capable of coming in there someday and spraying the room with bullets. What was your impression when you met him?
STEVEN CATES, FORMER CLASSMATE OF JARED LEE LOUGHNER: Well, my first impression was that he was definitely off. I wouldn‘t say I was necessarily afraid that he would come in and spray bullets, but he was definitely off. And you could tell he didn‘t connect with people the same way others did.
O‘DONNELL: And did you try to connect with him?
CATES: I did. I did. Growing up, I lived in a small town. And this appearance usually doesn‘t jive very well in a small town. I knew what it felt like to be ostracized and isolated. And I didn‘t want him to feel that in a poetry class of all places.
O‘DONNELL: What about his poetry? Was there anything in his poetry or anything in the classroom that would give you an indication about either his political thinkings or impulses towards violence?
CATES: No, not at all. His poems were actually very much the opposite of what people have been hearing about him. One of his poems was about tending to a garden and the relationship that a gardener has with the Earth and the beautiful flower and that beautiful bond.
Another one was called “Meat Head.” It was a satirical poem, making fun of the guys that go to the gym and spend all day at the gym, and their weight machine is the equivalent of their girlfriend. But nothing violent or political.
O‘DONNELL: Now, what do you make of the discussion you‘ve been hearing about was he influenced by comments by politicians and talking about targeting elected officials, targeting them in the sense of trying to beat them in campaigns? Would he transfer that in his brain into now it‘s time to target them with a gun? Do you think he could be influenced by any of that kind of thing?
CATES: Like he said, he lacked the stability that was apparent with most other people. So I can see where there would be that disconnect between what is heard and what is meant.
O‘DONNELL: I mean, might we also find things on his iPod that are music that‘s out there now, that‘s filled with all sorts of homicidal references, “I‘m going to get my gun and drop you to the floor,” and all that sort of thing. That influence is passing through all sorts of kids you know, who don‘t have any violent impulses after hearing it. But with someone like him, what do you think the affect of that might be?
CATES: I don‘t—that music has been around for quite a while. Lots of people listen to that. I personally don‘t see that there would be any connection between those.
O‘DONNELL: Yes, I think when people start talk about outside influences, like maybe some speech Sarah Palin gave, you have to start to include all the outside influences that might have affected him. But Steven Cates, thank you very much for your insight and sharing your time with us tonight to talk to us about this tragic case.
CATES: Not a problem.
O‘DONNELL: Still ahead on THE LAST WORD, the man who fired a gun at a U.S. congresswoman was able to buy his murder weapon easily. Why are we talking about political rhetoric when we should be talking about gun control?
And a 74-year-old retired Army colonel, who was bleeding from one of the bullets, kept the shooter from reloading. He‘ll explain that heroic act ahead on THE LAST WORD.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: On November 30th, Jared Lee Loughner went to a sporting goods store in Tucson, Arizona. There he passed an instant background check and legally purchased a Glock 19 semiautomatic handgun for 500 dollars, thereby further enriching Gaston Glock, the founder and chairman of the Austrian gun manufacturer that makes two-thirds of its blood money on sales in the United States.
Loughner then bought bullets at Walmart, which has issued a statement tonight saying the company is cooperating with the investigation, but neglected to include a word of regret or apology for actually selling bullets to a homicidal maniac.
In Arizona, any resident over the age of 18 without a criminal record can buy or possess a firearm. Last July a new law also made it legal for any resident age 21 or older, without a criminal record, to carry a concealed weapon.
Those guns can be taken almost anywhere, including inside the state capital building. The 33 round, high-capacity magazines allegedly used in Saturday‘s shootings were at one time banned under federal law. That law, part of a broader 1994 assault weapons ban, expired seven years ago under President George W. Bush.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
Congresswoman McCarthy, thank you very much for joining us tonight. And thank you very much for being the only politician to step forward with the only real response to what happened on Saturday in Tucson. Thank you very much.
The magazine used on Saturday holds 33 bullets. And 31 shots were fired, hitting 20 targets, six dead, 14 injured. Do you think you can get your colleagues in the wake of this tragedy to look at those magazines and say there is absolutely no reason for people to have those magazines other than the intent to kill a lot of people. Therefore, federal law should exclude those high-capacity magazines.
REP. CAROLYN MCCARTHY (D), NEW YORK: Lawrence, certainly I‘ve been fighting for the reduction of large capacity clips for probably about 16 years now. We got it passed on the assault weapons ban. But, as you know, it expired in 2004. Now we‘re seeing again on the streets the large capacity clips.
Our police officers, our military, I understand them having it. But for an ordinary citizen to have that many bullets in a clip—by the way, the person that was doing the shooting, in his pockets, he had many, many more clips in there. It was only a miracle that he wasn‘t able to again reengage a clip into the gun.
How many more people would he have taken out? I‘m hoping that I can. But you know the way Washington is. It‘s going to be a battle. There‘s no two ways about it.
This is common sense. It has nothing to do with guns now. It‘s a part of a gun. I happen to believe strongly, like you do, that we could have saved lives that day. We could have saved injuries that day. I‘m hoping my colleagues and I‘ll be working them.
Certainly I reached out to my leader, Nancy Pelosi. I have a call in to the new speaker, John Boehner. I‘ll be talking to members on both sides of the aisle to have them understand that this shouldn‘t happen again, and they shouldn‘t be allowed for an ordinary citizen to own.
O‘DONNELL: There‘s been a lot of talk about spreading blame or
responsibility beyond just the gunman, in political directions toward
people who have used different kinds of rhetoric. What about these
Austrian executives who run the Glock Gun Manufacturing Company, that could
not exist without its exports into the United States? What about the
president of Walmart, where these bullets were purchased for 22 cents each
--
It cost exactly 22 cents to put a bullet through the head of a congresswoman, 22 cents to kill a federal judge, thanks to Walmart. Should those executives be brought into this discussion of who is responsible for what‘s happening in gun violence in this country?
MCCARTHY: I think everybody should be brought spot talks that we‘re going to be doing? You know, when you think about it, that here in the United States, 10,000 people a year are killed by gun violence. If you want to add the total up to 30, those that committed suicide and those with accidental deaths.
There is a responsibility into owning a gun. There‘s no two ways about that. With that being said, I think everybody should get into this conversation. Instead of the rhetoric that we‘re hearing all the time, we need to do something.
Because not only is it killing people, not only is it injuring people, think about what it‘s costing our health care bill every single year. It comes over to a billion dollars a year for those that survive. I think that we‘re paying for it. The American people are paying for it.
I think that people can own guns, but there has to be a little bit more responsibility coming from those that own guns, saying we need to do something to stop all this violence.
O‘DONNELL: Congresswoman McCarthy, you got into politics because your husband was killed, your son was wounded on the Long Island Railroad in one of these insane shooting sprees that occurred in 1993. Gun control has been your cause.
Is there—do you worry that in all this talk about, you know, what did Sarah Palin say and what did Rush Limbaugh say today, and all the talk about the rhetoric that‘s out there, we are going to lose focus on what killed those people, which was a gun legally sold to a madman, in a country that is intent on preserving the madman‘s right to obtain firearms and shoot at people?
MCCARTHY: You know, it‘s a big problem. After the Virginia Tech shooting, I was able to pass legislation, the Nicks Bill, which basically has to do with background checks. I was able to convince my colleagues on both sides of the aisle. It passed the House, passed the Senate and President Bush signed that particular bill, that someone has been adjudicated to be mentally ill cannot buy a gun.
Obviously, you don‘t want to see a gun going into the hands of those that are mentally ill. With that being said, unfortunately the person that did the shooting in Arizona, he had not been adjudicated mentally ill, even though all the signs are there that he had been mentally ill.
With that being said, you know, whether it‘s when he went in to buy his gun and the bullets—from what I understand, from all reports, it was pretty obvious that he was not someone of right mind. They have the opportunity to make that decision not to sell the equipment and the bullets and the guns to him. Unfortunately, that case was not made.
O‘DONNELL: In fact, one Walmart refused to sell him the bullets. Those people should be championed. The other Walmart did. Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney, thank you for joining us. Thank you very much for being the only politician to step forward with the only reasonable reaction to this event so far. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
MCCARTHY: Thank you, Lawrence.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O‘DONNELL: It is hard to believe, but the tragedy in Tucson could have been much worse were if it were not for some people who demonstrated bravery in the face of extreme danger. One of them joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: The number of people Jared Loughner shot would have been far higher than 20 had it not been for the heroic actions of a few people attending the event. While Loughner tried to reload his nine millimeter Glock with a magazine containing another 33 bullets, one man struck Loughner on the back of the head with a folding chair. Then 74-year-old Retired Army Colonel Bill Badger, who was already bleeding from a bullet that had grazed his head, forced Loughner to the ground.
With the shooter subdued, Colonel Badger called his wife of 25 years, who then called 911.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911, Where is your emergency?
SALLY BADGER, WIFE OF VICTIM: My husband just called me and told me he was shot. He went to the Gabrielle Giffords—whatever they were doing today, and I don‘t know where he is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK? Your husband was shot?
BADGER: That‘s what he said. He just called me and then the phone went dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was a Gabrielle Giffords convention?
BADGER: He said—he left the house. He said I‘m going over to where Gabrielle Giffords is talking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Later, Sally Badger told the “Daily News,” my husband was born a hero. He‘s always been a hero. And he will always be a hero. President Obama agreed, saying Colonel Badger‘s heroism speaks to, quote, “the best of America, even in the face of such mindless violence.”
Joining me now, retired Army Colonel Bill Badger. Colonel Badger, you ran towards the sound of the gun. Most of us would run in the other direction. In your military training, you were schooled in doing that. Did you ever expect you‘d have to take such an action in a Safeway parking lot?
COL. BILL BADGER (RET), TACKLED TUCSON GUNMAN: Never in my life would I have thought that I would have to take action like that, you know, in a strip mall, you know, parking lot, or in front of a Safeway grocery store.
O‘DONNELL: When you go back into that moment, did you—were you thinking or was this more a matter of physical reacting the way an athlete would? What did it feel like?
BADGER: It was just a reaction, because, you know, I was shot in the head. I saw him doing the shooting. And I knew he was going to be shooting in my direction. When I turned to the left and ducked down to hit the ground, I felt the sting in the back of my head and the burning sensation. I knew I‘d been hit and I went to the ground.
And I stayed down as he was firing his gun, just bang, bang, bang, bang. And he stopped shooting. When he stopped shooting, I stood up. When I stood up, I didn‘t realize it, but he was walking by right in front of me, going from my right to my left.
And he just got passed me when this individual hit him over the head with the folding chair. And that gave me the opportunity, you know, to take him down.
O‘DONNELL: And when you say he was walking by, was he in an agitated state? I would have imagined him to be running, moving quickly.
BADGER: No, he was walking by slow. The only way I knew that that was the shooter after I got up was the fact that he was hit by this chair. And then I knew that the individual hit him, that that was the shooter.
When the individual hit him with the chair, why, his left arm came out a little bit away from his side and he had his gun in his right hand. It gave me the opportunity to just grab his left arm. I grabbed it right by the wrist and took my right hand and hit him right in the top—in the center of his back, up high, and forced him right to the ground.
O‘DONNELL: Were you surprised that you didn‘t get more resistance from him?
BADGER: No, it happened real fast, you know. You know, I was very pleased, because another individual there, about my age, grabbed his right arm at the same time I grabbed his left arm, and he also put his hand on his back. The impact of the chair, the individual hunched like he was falling forward. So when we both pushed on him, he went right down.
There was no struggle. He just went right straight down to the pavement where he was standing.
O‘DONNELL: And how did you keep him subdued until the authorities arrived?
BADGER: OK. He fell to the ground. When he fell to the ground, his gun came out. He dropped his gun, and it was laying about eight inches ahead of his—where his hand was at. And he was kind of reaching trying to get the gun.
The clip fell about a foot away from the gun. And one of the things that happened there was when he was trying to reach the gun, an individual who was there also to see the congresswoman reached down and grabbed the gun and picked it up.
And I immediately told the individual to drop the gun. He dropped it immediately and put his foot on it. But I said, you know, if some law enforcement people come up here and see you holding the gun, they might shoot you. And he was very pleased that he dropped the gun.
Another event that happened here that I should tell you about is there was a dear woman. She was—she was—he was coming directly towards her. And when he got just passed me, you know, at the same time that he was being hit with the chair and we were taking him down, why, he was reaching in his pocket and getting another clip.
And he pulled this clip out. And this woman grabbed it and jerked it out of his hand. And we took him down. That was the clip that was laying on the sidewalk right where he fell.
O‘DONNELL: Colonel Bill Badger, thank you for your quick thinking and your heroism on that scene on Saturday. There would be many, many more dead if you hadn‘t moved so quickly. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
BADGER: Yes, you‘re welcome. It‘s my pleasure.
O‘DONNELL: Thank you. That‘s all the time we have for tonight‘s “LAST WORD.” “COUNTDOWN” is up next.
END
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