Guests: Rep. Phil Roe, Rep. Peter Welch, Adam Green, Mark Meckler, Rep. Bob
Goodlatte, Phillip Ciesla
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Now, it‘s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O‘Donnell.
Good evening, Lawrence.
LAWRENCE O‘DONNELL, HOST: Good evening, Chris. Thank you very much, Chris.
HAYES: You bet.
O‘DONNELL: Rising joblessness, crushing debt and a polarizing political environment are fraying the bonds among our people—those words are straight from last year‘s House Republican Pledge to America, which laid out their priorities and the reasons why they deserved your vote. So, naturally, the first vote House Republicans schedule does nothing for jobs or the debt, but it does help maintain that polarizing political environment.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(MUSIC)
TAMRON HALL, MSNBC ANCHOR: The 112th Congress will be sworn in tomorrow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A new political order with a Republican majority in the House.
CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: Mr. Speaker or protester general?
O‘DONNELL (voice-over): Welcome back, Congress. Less than 24 hours until Republicans control the House, elect John Boehner as speaker and face a choice between governing or playing political games.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president said he‘s expecting politics as usual.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A sign of who is the adult, both Republicans and Democrats.
ANDREA MITCHELL, MSNBC HOST: Is there any of that?
MATTHEWS: The Republicans a protest party or a governing party?
O‘DONNELL: The first task for Republicans who promised to focus on jobs? Killing health care reform.
MATTHEWS: This is my evidence that they‘re not serious.
HALL: Republicans naming this bill that Repealing the Job-Killing Health Care Law Act. That‘s the official name.
MITCHELL: It‘s not going to go very far in the Senate.
MIKA BRZEZINSKI, MSNBC HOST: It‘s a waste of time. We don‘t need to be doing this right now.
O‘DONNELL: After playing politics with health care, it‘s time for Republicans to reward the people who got them here—starting with big business.
MATTHEWS: Their top congressional investigator, Darrell Issa, is asking corporations and trade associations themselves what regulations they‘d like him to target.
ED SCHULTZ, MSNBC HOST: He is now asking oil companies, drug companies, business lobbyists for advice on what regulations, you know, to get rid of.
MATTHEWS: And here‘s some evidence that Republicans are in bed with big business.
O‘DONNELL: And the Republican leadership will have to manage 43 freshman Tea Party Republicans intent on dismantling government.
MITCHELL: How big a factor is the Tea Party?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We‘ve heard them talk the talk for the past year and a half, and now it‘s time for them to walk the walk.
O‘DONNELL: Which puts even more pressure on soon-to-be Speaker John Boehner.
DAVID LETTERMAN, TV HOST: Let‘s talk about the speaker of the House, Boehner from Ohio.
JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST: The president‘s stronger than he‘s been in a long time with John Boehner about to become speaker.
LETTERMAN: This guy can‘t get an elevator and he starts to sob.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O‘DONNELL: Good evening from New York.
Tomorrow, Speaker Nancy Pelosi will pass the gavel to Speaker-elect John Boehner, while Tea Partiers rally in Washington to urge freshman Republicans to keep their campaign promises. The party of hell no has vowed to repeal health care and drastically cut spending.
Senate Democrats, meanwhile, are mobilizing to change the filibuster rule in an effort to avoid total partisan gridlock.
Also today, President Obama returned from his family vacation in Hawaii with job approval ratings at 50 percent for the first time since last May, following that last hour flurry of legislative accomplishments, including his tax compromise with Republicans in the lame duck session of Congress.
Eager to start his new job is Republican Congressman Darrell Issa, the new chair of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, who has a long list of investigations he plans to launch in the first three months of this year.
So, with repeal votes and endless investigations, is there really any chance at all that the Republican-controlled House will actually accomplish anything?
Joining me now are: Tennessee Republican Congressman Phil Roe, Democratic Congressman Peter Welch of Vermont, Adam Green, co-founder of the Progressive Change Campaign Committee, and Mark Meckler, co-founder of the Tea Party Patriots.
Congressman Roe, on January 12th, the Republicans have already scheduled a vote on health care repeal. Will you be voting to repeal the Obama bill, the entire bill that passed the Congress last year and was signed into law, or will you just be voting to repeal parts of it and leave some provisions in place?
REP. PHIL ROE ®, TENNESSEE: No, I think we‘ll vote to repeal the whole bill and start over. And I think that was our Pledge to America.
And when I came here to the Congress, I‘m a physician, and I came with over 30 years experience in the practice and management of medicine. And really wasn‘t included in this debate at all. And I think there are certainly much cheaper ways, as we get into the program, I certainly want to talk about that in some detail about what we did in Tennessee that didn‘t work that‘s included in this bill.
So, we need to repeal the whole bill and start from scratch in a bipartisan manner. You know, this was a completely partisan bill.
O‘DONNELL: Congressman Welch, is that repeal vote going to pass the House of Representatives? Or are there enough Democrats and possibly some Republicans joining you to preserve that—the bill? I mean, it‘s obviously not going to pass the Senate. But will it pass the House?
REP. PETER WELCH (D), VERMONT: I expect it will. I think the Republicans have the vote. That‘s their campaign promise.
But the effort we‘re going to make is to make this specific so that people understand that this is not about the rhetoric of Obamacare which the Republicans did a great job vilifying. It‘s about practical benefits that are going to help the middle class.
Let me give a couple of examples. You know, we have Donna Watts from Plainfield, Vermont. Her son got out of high school, got a job. They thought it was great, 10 bucks an hour. But it didn‘t have health care as most entry level jobs don‘t.
He got in a car crash, thousands of dollars of bills. That whole family is trying to figure out how to pay them. Under the health care bill, Donna‘s son would continue to have health care on her policy. And the repeal will take that away.
Or let‘s say your husband or wife has cancer, pre-existing condition.
Under the health care bill, they have a right to buy health insurance.
Under the repeal, they lose that benefit.
Your mom and dad are seniors and they‘re taking care of themselves. They can get free preventive care under Medicare, under the Obama health care legislation. The repeal‘s going to take that away.
So, the question that we‘re going to ask is: are they willing to take away that health care from Donna Watts‘ son? Are they willing to take it away from our fathers and mothers who are going to get free preventive care? Are they going to deny coverage to folks that have cancer or another pre-existing condition?
When you get specific, the American people support those specific provisions. This is about real world consequences to real families. It‘s not about the campaign and the political rhetoric any more.
O‘DONNELL: Mark Meckler of the Tea Party Patriots, this vote is for you, January 12th, the Republicans scheduling this vote in the House to repeal health care—a driving force of many Tea Party Republicans and many of the new Tea Party Republicans in the Congress.
It looks like, as Congressman Welch says, Democratic Congressman Welch says, it is going to pass. You will—your side will probably win this vote in the House of Representatives. Obviously, it will never be taken up in the U.S. Senate. So, the vote in the House of Representatives will go nowhere.
Is that good enough for you?
MARK MECKLER, TEA PARTY PATRIOTS: Well, I think it‘s a good start and I think it‘s inaccurate to say this vote is for me—I think you mean the Tea Party by that. The reality is, this vote is for the American people. The American people by a substantial majority do not favor this program.
Over 60 percent of them currently say they want it to be repealed.
This is a good example of Congress executing on the will of the American people. It‘s what they should do. It‘s what they‘re going to do.
And I wouldn‘t count the Senate out. As you know, the dynamics are very different in 2012. The Republicans have a 2-1 majority in seats that can change hands. I think you‘re going to see some very nervous Democrats in the Senate. This could go either way.
O‘DONNELL: Adam Green, I am counting the Senate out. It has no chance. It will never come to a vote. Repeal will never come to a vote in the Senate. We all know that.
So, it sounds like just taking symbolic votes in the House is good enough for the Tea Party. We‘ll come back to Mark if he wants to expand on that. But, Adam, how will this play?
We‘ve seen the argument lined up here now. We‘ve seen Congressman Roe tell us this is what they‘re going to do on repeal. We‘ve heard what the Democratic response to repeal will be—isolating specific pieces of the bill, some of which are very popular, that Congressman Roe will be voting to repeal. For example, the advantage to seniors on prescription drugs that‘s built into the Medicare provisions of this bill, the pre-existing conditions, many other popular elements in the bill. Every Republican it sounds like in the House will vote to repeal those things.
What do you expect the Democrats to be able to do with those votes when they take them into the next congressional campaign?
ADAM GREEN, BOLDPROGRESSIVES.ORG: Well, they definitely will be able to hold Republicans accountable. And this is really a kind of a first moment for Democrats to show that they can do what Republicans did so well the last couple of years, which is stay unified on an important vote.
I‘m glad that Mark brought up the will of the people because there‘s actually a very big national “Associated Press” poll that came out right before the election. It showed that by two to one, Americans think that the health care bill that passed did not go far enough compare to those who think that it‘s too much government intrusion in health care.
So, we support the will of the people. The will the people actually want a public option. And I guess I would actually issue this challenge of sorts to Congressman Roe, if he‘s listening. You know, he represents a district in Tennessee that voted for John McCain by 70 percent, voted for him by 80 percent. It‘s a very, very Republican district.
The congressman, what we would like to do at BoldProgressives.org is actually work with you to put together a poll of your constituents, one that we‘d be happy to pay for, and that pits directly head-to-head bold progressive policy positions on issues like this against right wing policy positions. So, we can ask people directly, your constituents.
Do you support a government-run health insurance program that competes head-to-head with private insurers? Do you support more government regulation of Wall Street? Do you support more government regulation of oil companies like BP? Do you support more taxes on the wealthy instead of cutting Social Security?
And we‘ll let the chips fall where they may. What we‘d like from you, Congressman, in addition to working with us on this poll, is to pledge today to follow the will of your constituents. If they support more regulation of Wall Street, to say that you will be willing to buck Republican Party leaders on issues like this and actually vote the will of your constituents.
Are you up to that, Congressman?
ROE: Let me—I‘d be glad to answer that. If you want to bring a public option to Tennessee, we‘ve already tried that. Beginning back in 1993, we had a plan called TennCare, where we‘re going to compete across different options and plans. And our spending on Medicaid, which was TennCare went from $2.6 billion to $8 billion in 10 budget years. It almost broke the state of Tennessee.
So, our governor, who is a Democrat, Phil Bredesen, very much opposes this basically government takeover of health care, which is what it‘s going to be. And we can talk about that in a little bit having tremendous experience with—as a matter of fact, no one in the Congress until tomorrow when Dr. DesJarlais, also a physician from Tennessee is sworn in, with this public option. I would be delighted to discuss that in detail.
And you act like—we act like that the only option to repeal this is not to replace it is absolutely alternatives. There are good things. You can‘t spend $1 trillion and you can‘t have a 2,500-page bill which I‘ve read and not have some things that are in it that are good—rescission, pre-existing conditions and so fort.
So, absolutely, I‘d be delighted to do that in my district.
O‘DONNELL: Congressman Roe, would you be delighted to vote for repeal of the congressional health care plan? And do you participate and use the government-run congressional health care plan for you and your family?
ROE: I do. And it‘s the only option I had. Let me also mention about—
O‘DONNELL: Oh, it‘s not the only option you have. You can opt-out of it and you can buy your own private insurance. It‘s not mandatory for you to take it.
ROE: Well, Lawrence, which I did until I got here. Now, I‘m on Medicare. And we talked about the public option—
(CROSSTALK)
O‘DONNELL: So, Congressman, we can just pause for a second. Can we just pause for a second? You are on the pure government-run health care plan called Medicare, which you are please with?
ROE: Now, let me tell you what I was going to say, Lawrence, was this.
O‘DONNELL: OK.
ROE: Was that we think a public option is a good idea until you reach the age of 65, and then you have no public option. I mean, you have—the only things you have is a public option. You don‘t have a private alternative. And you can‘t go out and buy your own insurance. I would argue—
O‘DONNELL: Oh, sure, you can. Let‘s not misinform the public. You can go out there and buy any supplementary insurance you want—
ROE: No, no.
O‘DONNELL: Very expensive supplementary insurance, get your private rooms in hospitals, get all that built in on private insurance plans that supplement Medicare.
(CROSSTALK)
ROE: You‘re absolutely right, with supplements. But it‘s not addition. It‘s not instead of Medicare. I don‘t have an option.
And I can go to the Medicare rules and regulations that I dealt with as a physician that are very onerous for patients. And, Lawrence, when we started this, when I came here, I came here as non-partisan as a human being came. I came here with the idea of trying to work on a program.
And let me tell you what I thought was wrong with the American health care system, it cost too much. It was too expensive to come to my office. The second problem we had was: we had a group of our people in our country who didn‘t have affordable health insurance coverage.
What this plan did was it increased access for some, but it astronomically increased costs and did nothing to bend the cost curve down. That‘s my problem with it.
O‘DONNELL: Mark Meckler, do you approve of Republican and Tea Party congressman participating in a government-run health care plan provided to them exclusively as member of Congress or should they—should you Tea Party Patriots urge them to repeal that program also?
MECKLER: I‘d love to see that program repealed. I think they should be participating in the same insurance markets that the rest of us participate in.
I‘d also like to ask Adam if he missed the greatest poll in the world that takes place every November 2nd. And those are our national elections. The ideas he expounded were completely repudiated on November 2nd. We don‘t need a poll today. We can talk again in six months.
But November 2nd, the American people spoke loud and clear, they repudiated big government. They repudiated Obamacare and now it‘s time for the government to do as they‘ve been requested to do.
O‘DONNELL: OK. Mark, we‘re going to have to break it there. You‘re all coming back. Mark, get those Republicans to schedule the repealing of the congressional health care plan on January 14th, the day after the big vote.
All right. We still have a lot to talk about with the panel.
Everyone, please stand by.
Plus, he‘s no longer the captain of his own ship. And these risque videos are to blame.
And the FCC can no longer control nudity on commercial TV.
That‘s all still ahead on THE LAST WORD.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: Will the incoming Tea Party freshmen prove to be a problem for Republicans and Democrats? Our panel gives their predictions.
Plus, a federal court issues a ruling allowing nudity on commercial TV, which means THE LAST WORD will have its first nude scene tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There‘s going to be politics. That‘s what happens in Washington. And they are going to play to their base for a certain period of time. But I‘m pretty confident that they‘re going to recognize that our job is to govern and make sure that we are delivering jobs for the American people and that we are creating a competitive economy for the 21st century. And so my expectation, my hope is that John Boehner and Mitch McConnell will realized that there will be plenty of time to campaign for 2012 in 2012, and our job this year is to build our recovery. We started to make good progress on that during the lame duck. And I expect to build on that progress when I get back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: We‘re back with Republican Congressman Phil Roe, Democratic Congressman Peter Welch, Adam Green, co-founder of the Progressive Change Campaign Committee, and Mark Meckler, co-founder of the Tea Party Patriots.
Congressman Welch, I have to say, I can speak from experience, everyone, everyone returns from Hawaii an optimist. Life is so pleasant out there, whether you‘re there for a long weekend or a couple weeks like the president. But he just sounded a little bit more than an optimist. He‘s starting to sound naive about what‘s coming when that plane land.
What do you make of the president‘s attitude about this incoming Republican House?
WELCH: Well, I haven‘t been to Hawaii. I‘d like to go some time.
But, you know, the Republican leadership, they won the election. Elections have consequences. And they have to make a decision whether they want to continue political battles or make progress.
And, you know, Phil Roe made a point about health care that I agree with, it costs too much. That‘s not a function of the Obama bill. That‘s the American medical system, where we are seeing the cost of health care increase two, three times the rate of inflation, the rate of profits, the rate of wage growth. That is unsustainable.
And whether you‘re a single-payer advocate as I am, or a private-payer advocate that maybe Phil is, it costs too much and we can‘t afford it. But why would the first step that you take be to abolish some of the things that are actually working for American families?
I mean, as Donna Watts in Plainfield, Vermont, her son gets an entry level job. He can‘t afford health care. Most kids starting out can‘t get a job with health care. Now, that person can be on his mom‘s policy. He‘s left with these big bills. The Republicans in repealing are going to take all the good away and start from scratch where everybody‘s on their own. That doesn‘t make a lot of sense.
So, the real question here is: will the leadership propose real problems. The cost of health care is a legitimate problem. Republicans and Democrats have responsibility to address it. But create space where we can work together to make progress, or will it just be a political dagger to the heart of the progress we‘ve made for the middle class?
O‘DONNELL: Congressman Roe, you mentioned that everyone agrees on, health care is too expensive. And yet in repealing the health care reform law that passed, you would be repealing provisions that make health care dramatically less expensive for people, including people on Medicare through the prescription drug benefit specifically, as well as other provisions of that law.
How will you answer your constituents back home when they say, you voted to make my prescription drugs more expensive?
ROE: Let me—Lawrence, let‘s look at the history of Medicare and the history of TennCare. The history of Medicare when there was no CBO in 1965 when this came about, there was a $3 billion program. The government estimates were that in 25 years, this would be a $15 billion program. It was over $100 billion. Today, it‘s over $400 billion.
And, basically, we talk about what we‘re giving to senior. What we haven‘t talked about today is what we‘re taking away.
And let‘s look at the demographics of the country. I‘m a boomer. And we‘re going to have 3 million people add each year for the next 20 years. So, there‘d be 35 million, 36 million people. And we‘re taking out of Medicare, Medicare Advantage, 135 or so billion, we‘re taking $500 billion out of an underfunded plan already.
And I hope we have time later to talk about the IPAB, the Independent Payment Advisory Board, got (ph) a bill to repeal. And I hope Peter will support this part. So that the cost estimates again—we haven‘t done anything to help control the costs in this bill and that‘s one of my major concern. That‘s why I think it has to be repealed, takes the parts that we can work together on it and work together.
O‘DONNELL: Adam Green, going back to the president‘s return from Hawaii and his optimism, it could be that it‘s because his approval rating is up, up significantly, up to 50 percent. This is in the wake of successful—politically successful compromising with Republicans on the tax bill and getting other accomplishments, Democratic accomplishments like “don‘t ask, don‘t tell” repealed in the lame duck session.
Do you think it‘s the president coming off of those successes more than what he expects from the new Republican Congress that leads to his sense of optimism right now?
GREEN: Well, first of all, Lawrence, I just returned today from New Jersey and I‘m an optimist. So, I guess you can call New Jersey, the Hawaii of the east, something like that.
(LAUGHTER)
GREEN: Yes, look, people like a winner. And he had a number of policy successes last session. And as actually Jane Hamsher pointed out on your show, the policies where he really had big successes where on progressive policy priorities that were overwhelmingly popular with not just Democrats with independent voters and many like-minded voters. So, this kind of gets to a point that Mark hit before. Mark said that, oh, we had a mandate in November.
Mark, I hate to break it to you, but what Obama did for the first couple years was not a progressive agenda. What progressives were pushing for, the most high-profile, the most popular part of the health care bill was gutted. It was the public option.
In the Wall Street fight, we were pushing to break up the big banks so we would no longer have too-big-to-fail. But, unfortunately, many of those that fund the Tea Party opposed that and it got gutted from the bill.
On the tax cut issue, we wanted him—we wanted him to get rid of tax cuts for the wealthy—something that the wealthy contributors, one of whom gave your organization $1 million, opposed and that got gutted.
So, what happened in November was many McCain-voting independents showed up, many Obama-voting independent were not inspired and we had a skewed electorate. Well, what we‘re saying is—and that‘s why I‘m so excited that the congressman accepted our offer to do a poll in his district. What we‘re saying is that across Democrats, across Republican, across independents, if Democratic politicians support, bold progressive priorities, we will inspire voters again and we will have huge turnout in 2012 and big Democratic wins.
O‘DONNELL: Mark Meckler, Tea Party Patriots—let me just back to what it is in the agenda in the coming Congress that you actually want to see accomplished, if anything. Are you content to see these symbolic votes in the House of Representatives on repealing health care which will go nowhere and health care will not be repealed. They don‘t have the power to do that in the Senate. President Obama would veto anything if we go with your wild theoretical mark that the Senate might actually do it.
So, is it just—let‘s see some symbolic votes that we can cheer on and then we can tell Tea Partiers, we‘ll actually get these things done if you give us a Republican president and Republican Senate?
MECKLER: Regardless of whether it passes in the Senate, Lawrence, you and Adam are going to have to deal with the fact that the House is going to defund Obamacare. It‘s not going to come into effect.
Even if they weren‘t going to do that, it is clearly unconstitutional. Never before in the history of the United States has the government forced consumers to participate in a market that is beyond the pale. It‘s beyond the reach of the federal government‘s powers under the Constitution.
So, we‘re going to completely defund, repeal Obamacare. It‘s got to be gotten rid. That‘s number one.
Number two, we‘re going to continue our push to lower regulation, lower taxes, free Americans to do what they do best. The American citizen knows how to create jobs, wealth, prosperity. It‘s what we do better than any people on the face of the United States when the government gets out of our lives.
So, we‘re going to push for those priorities. We expect to see Republican Congress accomplish them.
O‘DONNELL: How are you going to do any of these things, Mark, if the president has the veto pen?
MECKLER: Well, the answer is, again, look at electoral politics in 2012. The Democrats are severely at risk. The Senate sets up on a 2-1 advantage for Republicans. There are many Democrats that are in moderate to conservative states. They‘re in trouble in 2012 if they don‘t move to the center, if they don‘t start to cooperate with Republicans.
We‘re happy to see what happens in 2012. We know this revolution has just begun. We know there‘s more work to do in 2012 and beyond. We‘re here for the long haul. We expect long-term change.
O‘DONNELL: All right, group, that‘s going to be it be for tonight.
Congressman Phil Roe, thank you very much for joining us.
Democratic Congressman Peter Welch, Adam Green, returning champion here on THE LAST WORD, co-founder of the Progressive Change Campaign Committee—thanks, Adam. And Mark Meckler, co-founder of the Tea Party Patriots. Thank you all for joining us tonight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
O‘DONNELL: Still to come: he‘s about to do something that‘s never been done in Congress and the Republicans hope it will work to their advantage. Congressman Bob Goodlatte joins me next.
And, you‘ve done it again. The kindness of THE LAST WORD audience helps us reach another benchmark in our efforts to get students off the floor of classrooms in Malawi.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: In our spotlight tonight, the man who will symbolically set the tone for the GOP as Republicans take control of the House. On Thursday, nine-term Virginia Congressman Bob Goodlatte will step on to the floor of the House and begin to read the entire Constitution aloud, word for word. Any member of the House, Democrat or Republican, who wants to help Congressman Goodlatte can come to the floor on a “first come, first serve” basis and read a portion of the Constitution.
Congressman Goodlatte says, quote, “The Constitution has never been read aloud on the floor of the House of Representatives. This historic and symbol reading is long overdue and shows that the new majority in the House truly is dedicated to our Constitution and the principles for which it stands.
Congressman Bob Goodlatte, Republican from Virginia, joins me now from Capitol Hill.
Congressman, thanks for joining me tonight.
REP. BOB GOODLATTE ®, VIRGINIA: Glad to be with you, Lawrence.
O‘DONNELL: Congressman, do you agree with everything the Founding Fathers wrote in the Constitution?
GOODLATTE: Oh, no. We certainly have made changes to the Constitution, amendments to the Constitution, that have changed the original writings of the Constitution in a number of respects. In fact, when we read the Constitution, we will omit those portions that have been deleted by subsequent amendments that were adopted over time.
O‘DONNELL: But you won‘t be able to read the nothing that the framers said about slavery, for example. Slavery was completely constitutional until 1875 when an amendment was required to revisit the wisdom of the Founding Fathers, which you will agree, surely, was completely wrong on slavery.
GOODLATTE: Absolutely right. And we will read that 13th Amendment to the Constitution as a part of the Constitution on Thursday, because that is indeed an important amendment that abolished slavery.
O‘DONNELL: So, we‘ve established that this was a document written by men, fallible men, who made some grievous—in the case of slavery—grievous mistakes. Why is it that you think we need to somehow return to what? A literal interpretation of the Constitution or some flexible interpretation, or a flexible interpretation that is determinative—something that can be determined only by Republicans?
GOODLATTE: No, I think that what we should return to is a debate in the Congress that looks at the Constitution and looks for a foundation for any laws that the Congress adopts. We are a nation of laws, not of men. And the Constitution is the foundation for those laws.
And so, we think that a lot of times today, members of Congress introduce a bill because they think it‘s a great thing. And it might be a wonderful thing, but it may not at all be what was intended by our Founding Fathers to be a part of our federal government, as opposed to what our states do or what we as individuals do in a free country.
So, that‘s the issue that has really come to a fore in the last several months. The health care legislation has been particularly focused on this with the issue of whether or not it‘s constitutional for the federal government to mandate that individuals buy health insurance from private health insurance companies. We have, as a part of our new rules of the House, a requirement that all bills introduced in the Congress state the basis in the Constitution, the section of the Constitution upon which that introducer of the bill relies in introducing it.
Different people have different interpretations of different sections of the Constitution, but at least this begins the process of debating what the meaning of the Constitution is and what the role of modern legislation is in the context of the Constitution, and this reading of the Constitution on Thursday, which is getting tremendous response from Democrats and Republicans will have—I‘ll have plenty of help reading the Constitution on Thursday—is, I think, indicative of that hunger on the part of the people to have this be a government of laws, not of the whims of the members of Congress.
O‘DONNELL: Congressman Goodlatte, which Supreme Court justice currently sitting most reflects your reading of the Constitution?
GOODLATTE: Well, I think I would probably identify most closely with Justice Scalia. There are many good justices on the Supreme Court, but he is one who says, look—look to the original intent of drafters of the Constitution. If you think times have changed, if you think circumstances require change, then use the process set forth in the Constitution to amend it. Don‘t simply empower judges with the authority to reinterpret the original Constitution to fit what they think, you know, current societal needs are.
That is not the basis of a representative democracy where elected representatives of the people should adopt legislation but within the framework that our government operates under, which is the Constitution, if you think that you‘re doing something outside of that framework, then seek the support of the people to amend the Constitution and that‘s indeed what we did when we abolished slavery.
O‘DONNELL: Congressman, you introduced a bill in Congress that you got passed into law which censored the Internets for pornography to your decency standards, the Supreme Court ruled your bill unconstitutional. Justice Anton Scalia, who you identify with most closely, voted against your bill as being unconstitutional.
So, the justice you cite as reflecting your views most closely has, in your one step up to the Supreme Court on a piece of legislation that you got through the Congress, ruled against you. So, what is it that makes you think you have a closer claim on constitutional authority than Democrats do and the Democrats have had in the Congress?
GOODLATTE: Oh, I think that everyone in the Congress, our elected representatives of the people and have the opportunity to argue what they think is the appropriate interpretation of the Constitution. I believe that the First Amendment does not protect pornographers—
O‘DONNELL: But you are wrong.
(CROSSTALK)
GOODLATTE: Well, the Supreme Court says I‘m wrong.
O‘DONNELL: But, Congressman, do you now recognize with Anton Scalia guiding you that you are wrong. It was a 7-2 decision against your thinking about this Constitution—
GOODLATTE: No, I wouldn‘t—
O‘DONNELL: -- and the decency that you think the First Amendment somehow preserves and excludes indecency.
GOODLATTE: Lawrence, I would agree with those two dissenting judges in that opinion, absolutely.
O‘DONNELL: OK. Good luck with that.
Let me move on to one more before we go, which is the minimum wage. Tea Party candidates running for office this time, many of them suggesting that the minimum wage is not constitutional—there is no constitutional authority for it.
Can you settle that one for us, Congressman? Is the minimum wage constitutional?
GOODLATTE: Well, I have not looked at the Constitutionality of that issue. It certainly is good, though, when we take up future debates about minimum wage to determine whether or not indeed the Congress has the authority to impose a minimum wage or whether that should be left to the states.
O‘DONNELL: Congressman—
GOODLATTE: Many states have minimum wages that they impose that are higher than the federal minimum wage. They have a clear right to do that.
O‘DONNELL: Congressman, then why did you vote for an increase in the minimum wage in the 110th Congress?
GOODLATTE: Well, I think—
O‘DONNELL: You don‘t even know if it‘s constitutional.
GOODLATTE: Well, that‘s correct. And that‘s why it‘s good to have a clear debate—
O‘DONNELL: So, you voted for an increase in something that you don‘t even know has constitutional authority to exist?
GOODLATTE: That‘s correct. And that‘s why it‘s good to reinstate this focus on the Constitution as we debate these bills. In the future, a minimum wage bill will have to have in it a declaration of the section the Constitution that gives the authority to increase the minimum wage. I think that‘s a very good thing. But many, many bills—
O‘DONNELL: But you are happy—you are happy to vote for an increase in it in the past without that being there and you are happy to author a bill that violated the First Amendment without any citing of the authority of the Constitution about how you could do that. You were happy to do those things in the past but, now, suddenly, there‘s a change of heart.
GOODLATTE: No, I think that there‘s a very good purpose in focusing every member of Congress on what the Constitution says, and so, requiring that that be the starting point of bills that are introduced is a very good thing. It‘s absolutely right that every member of Congress has voted for legislation without consideration to its constitutionality in the past and we intend to try to change that.
O‘DONNELL: No, that‘s not true. Not every member has done what you‘ve done. There are plenty of members of Congress who have voted very carefully on matters of constitutional principle, voted against bills that they liked in theory but were against because of constitutional principle. So, don‘t accuse everyone in Congress of doing what you have done.
GOODLATTE: Well, let me put it this way. Every member of Congress has voted for measures that other people would think are unconstitutional. And that is the purpose of having this focus on the Constitution as a part of the debate when we introduce new measures into the Congress.
O‘DONNELL: OK. Congressman Bob Goodlatte, thank you very much for joining us tonight. And good luck with the read on the House floor.
GOODLATTE: Thanks, Lawrence.
O‘DONNELL: A steaming video leaves Navy officials seething. And one captain off the ship. Did the Navy go too far in relieving the captain of his duties? We‘ve got one former officer who says yes.
And the nudity in this television scene gives us tonight‘s “Rewrite” -
a “Rewrite” eight year in the making.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: It was a flash of nudity that almost caused some TV stations more than $1 million, until a federal court rewrote the FCC‘s authority to censor such scenes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: Time for tonight‘s “Rewrite,” and this one is about eight years in the making.
Today, the Second U.S. Court of Appeals nullified fines imposed by the FCC on the ABC Television Network and 45 of its affiliates for showing actress Charlotte Ross naked on a 2003 episode of “NYPD Blue.” Yes, we‘re going to show you the clip, but now that it‘s legal, you know, I‘ve got to say a few more words about it to justify our first flash in forbidden skin here on THE LAST WORD.
The fines, which topped $1.2 million were only imposed on ABC affiliates in the Central and Mountain time zones because the episode aired there before 10:00 p.m. inside television‘s so-called safe harbor. Courts are carefully using the First Amendment to rewrite and inevitably revoke the FCC‘s right to regulate any speech or action on television.
And as FCC censorship practices continue to disintegrate, the Parents Television Council will continue to issue angry statements about courts that take a literal view of the Constitution‘s First Amendment, “Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech.” And today, the Parents Television Council issued a statement which reads in part, “This ruling is as devoid of common sense as it was predictable.”
We owe thanks for today‘s triumph of the First Amendment to the writers of the “NYPD Blue” show. In question, Steven Bochco and David Milch, two of the most important and influential artists who have ever created television drama.
And now, freed from the fear of the FCC, it is my honor to present this history-making piece of television.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “NYPD BLUE”-ABC)
(MUSIC)
UNIDENTIFIED BOY: Sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It‘s OK. No problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: I know you‘d like to see that scene again, especially with our little “Rewrite” banner out of the way, but it can—it‘s going to be really hard to find. Season 10 of “NYPD Blue” is not on DVD yet. It‘s also hard to track down online.
But if you go to our blog at TheLastWord@MSNBC.com, we‘ve posted a link to the one place, the one place we know you can find it uncensored online, the Web site of the Parents Television Council.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: Captain Owen Honors has been permanently relieved from his position as commanding officer of the USS Enterprise” after controversial videos he produced and starred in were leaked to “The Virginia Pilot” newspaper. The videos were broadcast to the ship‘s 6,000 sailors and marines on closed circuit television during movie nights in 2006 and 2007. At the time, Captain Honors served as the ship‘s executive officer, its second in command.
Here, Captain Honors uses an editing trick to appear as three different characters, himself, an aviator and a SWO, which is short for surface warfare officer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. OWEN HONORS, USS ENTEPRISE: I‘ve gotten several complaints about inappropriate material during these videos. Never to me personally, but gutlessly through other channels. This evening, all of you bleeding hearts and you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) SWO boy, why don‘t you just go ahead and hug yourselves for the next 20 minutes or so because there‘s a really good chance you‘re going to be offended tonight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: After our last segment, lest you think network censorship is dead, this network‘s in-house censors in their latest exercise of job justification just prevented us from allowing you to hear the captain use a derogatory three-letter word for gay man, that‘s what that bleep was.
Joining me now, former Navy petty officer, Phillip Ciesla, who served on the USS Enterprise under Captain Honors when the videos were broadcast.
Phil Ciesla, how were these videos received, an audience of 6,000? How many thought they were OK? How many people in your sense objected to them?
PHILLIP CIESLA, FMR PETTY OFFICER, USS ENTERPRISE: Good evening, Lawrence.
As far as how the video were received by the crew, speaking for myself and I think I can speak for a good majority of the crew on the Enterprise, they were generally received pretty well. Most people liked them, men and women alike. It was well-received. Of course, you can‘t please everybody. But for the most part, people liked them.
O‘DONNELL: And there were some women who participated in the videos simulating the showering together and things like that. All intended apparently to be in good fun, but there were complaints about this at the time. There were members of the ship who did complain. In fact, the captain was referring to them quite honestly right there in the video we just saw. So, it didn‘t go out without any complaints, did it?
CIESLA: No, no. There was some complaints. And that‘s going to be with anything you do in life. Somebody is always going to complain. Like I said, you can‘t please everybody.
O‘DONNELL: Now, Senator John McCain is a former Navy lieutenant commander himself, served on the Enterprise.
He tweeted this this afternoon. “I believe the Navy made the right decision in the case of Captain Honors and we thank him for his service to our country.”
What would you say to John McCain?
CIESLA: I would say that that is his opinion and he‘s entitled to it. I happen to disagree. I don‘t think he should—I definitely think he should have been reprimanded—at least a slap on the wrist, but I don‘t think he shouldn‘t have lost his command.
O‘DONNELL: Do you think there‘s something that John McCain gets from having been in the military, possibly more of a command position—and having grown up in the military, his father ahead of him that makes him think there‘s a more dignified role for an officer to play on a ship?
CIESLA: Probably so. I‘m sure he does.
O‘DONNELL: All right. Phillip Ciesla, former petty officer on board the USS Enterprise—thank you very much for joining us tonight.
CIESLA: Not at all. Have a good evening.
O‘DONNELL: You can have THE LAST WORD online, at our blog, TheLastWord.MSNBC.com, and you can follow my tweets @Lawrence.
That‘s tonight‘s LAST WORD. “COUNTDOWN” is up next.
END
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