Guests: Kerry Sanders, Chris Coons, Sway Calloway, Rabbi Yehuda, David-Seth Kirshner
RACHEL MADDOW, “THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW” HOST: Now it‘s time for THE
LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O‘DONNELL.
Hi, Lawrence.
LAWRENCE O‘DONNELL, HOST: Come on, Rachel. A disgraced former politician has to make a living somehow.
MADDOW: You know, for $5,000, I‘d be happy to debate that with you, Lawrence.
O‘DONNELL: All right. We‘ll do that some day. Thanks, Rachel.
MADDOW: Thanks.
O‘DONNELL: Former witch and current candidate for U.S. Senate Christine O‘Donnell could run no more. After weeks of evading questions about what she really believes, the Tea Party Republican finally faced her opponent tonight, Democratic candidate for Senate from Delaware, Christopher Coons, will join me to discuss their debate.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(MUSIC)
CHRISTINE O‘DONNELL ®, DELAWARE SENATE CANDIDATE: I‘m Christine O‘Donnell. I‘m not a witch.
L. O‘DONNELL (voice-over): Former witch Christine O‘Donnell campaigning for Delaware‘s U.S. Senate seat wants the jokes to stop.
C. O‘DONNELL: Just like you, I have to constantly deny that I‘m a witch.
It is disgusting that it has even gotten this far.
L. O‘DONNELL: Yes. How did that happen?
C. O‘DONNELL: Companies are crossbreeding humans and animals, mice with fully functioning human brains.
Why are monkeys still not evolving into humans?
You can‘t masturbate without lust.
I didn‘t go to Yale.
L. O‘DONNELL: Now, candidate O‘Donnell is facing more extreme statements from her past.
C. O‘DONNELL: Referred to people who get AIDS as victims, it‘s that kind of spinning with words, things that we know will not prevent AIDS. Distribute condoms in high school.
L. O‘DONNELL: I candidate O‘Donnell starting to sound a little witchy again?
(MUSIC)
C. O‘DONNELL: America is now a socialist economy.
The federal government was never designed to be as invasive and intrusive in our daily lives as it is today.
L. O‘DONNELL: For the first time tonight, she is debating her Democratic opponent.
CHRIS COONS (D), DELAWARE SENATE CANDIDATE: I‘m Chris Coons.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He‘s intelligent. He‘s compassionate. He cares about the people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This November 2nd, vote for Christine O‘Donnell, aka Sereda the Enchantress, because I‘m not a witch.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O‘DONNELL: Good evening. From New York, I‘m Lawrence O‘Donnell.
Delaware is now the most watched Senate race in America. Republican Tea Partier Christine O‘Donnell versus Democrat Chris Coons. Tonight, the two a faced off in a debate for the first time at the University of Delaware.
Going into the debate, Chris Coons led Christine O‘Donnell in the polls by an average of 19 points, according to “Talking Points Memo,” 56 to 37.
The debate played to a packed house, campus tickets sold out in less than 10 minutes on Monday. University of Delaware students were obviously hoping to have some fun. Christine O‘Donnell did not disappoint.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COONS: There‘s been lots of discussion in the national media about things my opponent has said or done that I think are frankly distractions, from the core issues that Delawareans asked about, asked both of us about.
C. O‘DONNELL: You‘re just jealous that you were not on “Saturday Night Live.”
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Here now, the one person who is standing between Christine O‘Donnell and the United States Senate, Delaware‘s New Castle County executive Chris Coons.
Chris Coons, I know every candidate leaves the debate stage beating themselves up over something they should have said. What are you beating yourself up over? What do you wish you had said out there?
COONS: Well, Lawrence, thanks for a chance to be on with you this evening.
We did have a great and long debate. It was 90 minutes here at the University of Delaware. And I‘m frankly leaving the stage, wishing that I had been able to focus more on the issues that really mattered to Delawareans, to talk more about job creation, about innovation, about competiveness. We spent an awful lot of time dealing with the distraction of issues that my opponent—things that she said years ago on late night TV, things that keep coming back to haunt her, frankly, and that I think dogged her in the course of the debate this evening.
What I hear up and down the state of the Delaware is folks who are interested, really, in the issues about how we tackle the deficit and debt, how we create jobs and make America competitive again.
And Wolf Blitzer did a terrific job, as did Nancy Karibjanian, this evening, our two moderators, in holding my opponent accountable for her actions, for her statements, for a lot of things that she‘s done as a candidate and as well as a TV pundit.
O‘DONNELL: Now, let‘s go to an issue that came up that is relevant to senators, especially when it comes to voting on confirmations of United States Supreme Court justices and other federal judges, and that is the issue of abortion. Let‘s listen to what Christine O‘Donnell had to say about abortion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is your stance on abortion, including in cases of rape and incest?
C. O‘DONNELL: I believe there‘s been a profound loss of respect for the dignity of human life, and that‘s reflected in a lot of our policies, whether it‘s cutting tax exemptions for disabled low income citizens in New Castle County or with abortion. I respect the human dignity on all levels, the unrepeatable precious human dignity on all levels. And my opponent and others will use the scare tactic about rape and incest, when that is less than 1 percent of all abortions performed in America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Chris Coons, you‘ve spent more time listening to Christine O‘Donnell than I have. Can you translate that for us? I think I heard her say she supports and would insist on opposing any abortion in all cases, including rape and incest? Is that what we heard, she‘s opposed to any form of abortion, including in cases of rape and incest?
COONS: I think that‘s right, Lawrence, but I don‘t speak for Christine. It was great to finally have a chance to debate her here, less than three weeks from the general election. We‘ve had a number of other debates scheduled that she hasn‘t attended.
And a lot of folks here in Delaware have been eager to actually get a chance to ask her questions, to hear her views. She likes to claim that she‘s matured in her faith, and matured in her policy views, but one of the challenges Delawareans face is understanding exactly where she does stand today.
We have another debate tomorrow, and two next week, I‘m hoping she‘ll join us at those debates and I‘m hoping we‘ll get a chance again to press her on where she stands on these important issues.
O‘DONNELL: Well, she has overnight to prepare herself a little bit better for questions about the Supreme Court. That‘s what led to her deer in the headlights moment tonight.
Let‘s listen to what happened when she was asked about the Supreme Court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What opinions of late that have come from our high court do you most object to?
C. O‘DONNELL: Oh, gosh, give me a specific one, I‘m sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually, I can‘t, because I need you to tell me which ones you object to.
C. O‘DONNELL: I‘m very sorry, right off the top of my head. I know that there are a lot, but I‘ll put it up on my Web site, I promise you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Now, Tea Party Republicans believe and they have been saying for decades now that the United States Supreme Court is wildly legislating from the bench, that the Supreme Court is completely out of control. And here you have the leading Tea Party candidate who can‘t name a single Supreme Court case off the top of her head that she‘s got any problem with.
Did that surprise you? Did you think she‘d be ready with something on that?
COONS: Lawrence, that surprised me a little bit. But frankly, there were lots of things that my opponent said this evening that surprised me. If I did struggle in one area, it was in focusing my answers on one thing at a time, of the many things that she said that were misstatements, mischaracterizations or just flat-out lies.
There were quite a few things said tonight that I frankly look forward to being able to rebut, either online or in person, tomorrow or the next few times we debate. I would have expected her to be better prepared for this evening‘s debate.
O‘DONNELL: Now, I want to show you a commercial that they‘ve put out, put out by the friends of Christine O‘Donnell. Let‘s take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NARRATOR: In America, where jobs are being lost and wages cut, in Delaware, where the economy is suffering and families are losing their homes, there is one man who stood against the tide and raised taxes—one man who thought that a 911 call should be taxed, one man who thought property taxes should be hiked almost 50 percent, one man who is county executive of New Castle County on the brink of bankruptcy.
Hide your will, hide your lights because he‘s taxing everything out here.
Chris Coons is the taxman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Chris Coons, I got to tell you, other than the spot there where it advocates the crime of tax evasion by hiding your will and avoiding state taxes, that‘s got to be one of the best, if not the best political ads I‘ve ever seen.
How much of it is true? And does it even matter at this point with an ad that is that effective in its message?
COONS: Lawrence, I don‘t think that‘s a particularly effective ad, and it‘s certainly not a truthful ad.
As I tried to address this evening, and I look forward to addressing more tomorrow at the Wilmington Rotary Club, most of the critical elements of that campaign ad, that nasty personal attack ad, are not true.
The most important one is the suggestion that I drove New Castle County to the edge of bankruptcy. In fact, I‘ve worked very hard over the last six years, cutting $130 million in county spending, including taking a pay cut myself for two years, and making the entire county workforce join me in taking a pay cut for two years, in order a bipartisan, balanced solution. Out of 3,000 counties in America, New Castle County is one of roughly 30 that has a AAA bond rating from all three rating agencies.
Today, this year, we have a real surplus and we have more than $100 million in cash reserves. That‘s a financially strong county, not one that‘s been driven to the edge of bankruptcy.
Ms. O‘Donnell‘s attack ad fundamentally misrepresents the record and the truth.
O‘DONNELL: Now, this ad mentions the idea of you taxing 911 calls.
Christine O‘Donnell mentioned that.
COONS: That‘s just ridiculous.
O‘DONNELL: The debate tonight. What‘s the truth about that?
COONS: There is a fee on landlines in Delaware that the general assembly imposed years ago that helps fund 911 services across our state. All the different municipalities, the local governments that have 911 centers noticed over many years that the use of cell phones was increasing, the number of calls to 911 centers was increasing, but cell phones don‘t pay a fee. Not for calling the 911 center, but for the convenience, the service of having a cell phone.
So, a number of us came together and asked the general assembly if they would stabilize the funding for 911 services by extending the line charge from landlines to cell lines, not a tax on calling the 911 center.
O‘DONNELL: And what do you find when you‘re out there meeting voters? How much of this stuff is getting through, and how much are they sorting out? What is it that you‘re finding they really care about? The taxing 911 calls or not taxing 911 calls, versus what‘s going to happen to Social Security, what‘s going to happen to taxes next year?
You are in favor of the Bush tax cuts expiring on some of the brackets, not expiring on others. Christine O‘Donnell wants to preserve them on all brackets.
Is that tax argument the central argument in a state like Delaware? Or is it more the long term issues involving financing Medicare, Social Security? Or is it things like 911 calls?
COONS: Lawrence, it‘s about jobs. What I get asked about over and over is, how are you going to get us back to work? How are you going to make America competitive again? What are you going to do to fight for us in terms of trade and tax and investments that will make it possible for us to sustainably grow our economy and get out of this recession?
I support extending the Bush tax cuts, providing tax relief to the overwhelming majority of Americans and to small and medium businesses. But as I said in the debate tonight, the way I‘ll make decisions about how much more tax relief we can afford, how much we can extend, and also increase the deficit and the debt is going to be by prioritizing those things that have the best chance of getting small and medium sized businesses to do what they do best, which is create high quality new jobs.
As I mentioned tonight, I proposed an R&D tax credit and expansion of the home office tax credit, an expansion of a manufacturing credit tied with the R&D credit. So, if you invent here and make it here, we‘ll double down on that and encourage you to grow even faster.
I think we should be looking at all the full menu of possible tax cuts and extensions, reach a bipartisan—we should work together to reach a bipartisan solution in the lame duck session, and get America moving again. That‘s what folks ask me most about, Lawrence.
O‘DONNELL: Chris Coons, getting ready for another debate tomorrow. You know she‘s going to be better tomorrow, she‘s going to stay up all night, she‘s going to cram, she‘s going to have something to say about the Supreme Court. You know she‘s going to be better, right?
COONS: I would hope. But frankly, I‘m looking forward to getting a good night‘s sleep.
O‘DONNELL: All right. Chris Coons, Democratic candidate for Senate from Delaware, thanks for joining us tonight.
COONS: Thank you, Lawrence.
O‘DONNELL: Carl Paladino has been fighting Christine O‘Donnell for media attention, now that he‘s apologized for his anti-gay remarks, he‘s got a problem with the Jewish leaders who supported his anti-gay comments in the first place. I‘ll talk to one of those rabbis—coming up.
And later, the joy in Chile. We‘ll talk to Kerry Sanders about the heroic efforts to rescue the trapped miners, all of whom are safe and above ground tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: Coming up, the MTV vote in the midterms. Tomorrow, President Obama is holding an MTV town hall. Can the president do anything at this point to close the enthusiasm gap? Sway Calloway of MTV joins me.
And later: Carl Paladino‘s problem will not go away. Now, his apology for his anti-gay remarks is triggering an anti-apology backlash. Details ahead on THE LAST WORD.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: It‘s less than three weeks until the midterm elections, Democrats are trying to get a group of voters who helped them in record numbers back in 2008, to come to their rescue this year, young voters—a group that in the past has a very low turnout in midterm elections.
Tomorrow, President Obama is going to try to recharge their excitement at a town hall at Georgetown University.
Joining me now: one of the hosts for the MTV/BET event, “A Conversation with President Obama,” MTV news correspondent, Sway Calloway.
Sway, the latest polling shows President Obama‘s approval rating among young voters is at 44 percent, that‘s down from 60 percent last year.
SWAY CALLOWAY, MTV NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
O‘DONNELL: What happened?
CALLOWAY: Well, you know, I think people—you know, two years ago, when he was elected into office, people were very enthusiastic about seeing change in America. And I think the current conditions what‘s going on in our country, in terms of the high unemployment rate, lack of jobs, real estate market, expensive education has made a lot of people cynical.
O‘DONNELL: Did President Obama in effect overpromise to young voters? Was his rhetoric just too overpromising to them on what was possible, and allowed them to forget what they had learned in their high school civics books about the Congress and how the Congress actually votes and decides the outcomes of all domestic legislation?
CALLOWAY: Well, I think—I can‘t speak—you know, I think it‘s more or less the conditions of the country today are directly affecting young people more so than it ever has. I mean, you know, we did our survey with—with did a study with “A.P.” and MTVU, which is our sister station, that found that over 80 percent of young people are concerned about jobs and the economy. These things are directly affecting them when they graduate from college, there‘s no jobs to go to. It‘s affecting their pocketbooks.
And I think that, in large part, plays a role in why people have become a little less enthused about politics right now.
O‘DONNELL: Celebrities have tried to focus the young vote on this upcoming election. Let‘s look at what Jay-Z has done?
CALLOWAY: Jay-Z has—
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAY-Z, SINGER: I want to say something really important but really quick, I‘m not going to preach to you, but we did something really special this year. Just show that our generation changed the world. It never happened before. We absolutely changed the world. We changed the world.
So, it just goes to show anything is possible. Fight for what‘s right, fight for what you believe in, and stay forever young.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Is it too late in the election cycle for Jay-Z to start to drum up excitement?
CALLOWAY: Hey, Lawrence, I don‘t know about you, but every time I see Jay-Z, I get excited. You know, Jay-Z, you know, Lady Gaga, we were at the VMAs, I actually interviewed her on the VMA stage and she brought out four military, four officers who were released out of the military and support—you know, she wants to get rid and repeal “don‘t ask, don‘t tell” You know, efforts like that is bringing attention to young Americans about what‘s going on in politics.
Jay-Z surely speaking out is going to have a lot of young Americans paying attention.
But I think the best thing for the president to do is what he‘s doing tomorrow at our forum, “A Conversation with President Obama,” where he‘s going to take on a lot of questions from a diverse group of young Americans who come from different political viewpoints, different ethnicities, different races, religions, different backgrounds and different political parties.
You know, and I think the best thing he can do is answer those questions, let people know what his plans are in the immediate future and how he‘s going to change his conditions that concern young Americans most.
So, rather, Jay-Z going out there, yes, that adds a spark. You know, Lady Gaga, what she‘s doing is bringing a lot of attention to “don‘t ask, don‘t tell.”
But it‘s up to the president and his administration to really pull it off.
O‘DONNELL: Sway Calloway of MTV—good luck hosting tomorrow‘s town hall with the president.
CALLOWAY: Thank you. It will be in the BET studio tomorrow 4:00 p.m. on MTV/BET, Lawrence. I‘ll hope you watch it, man.
O‘DONNELL: I‘m supposed to watch MSNBC then, but I am going to be watching you.
CALLOWAY: Thank you, bro.
O‘DONNELL: OK, Sway.
Sarah Palin has taken a brave stand against Sharia law becoming the law of the land. It‘s tonight‘s rewrite.
And the historic last 24 hours in Copiapo, Chile. We‘ll be joined once again by Kerry Sanders as that country celebrates the rescue of all 33 trapped miners.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LAWRENCE: It‘s hard to argue that Texans are not proud of their state. There are Facebook pages entitled “Texas is Better Than Your State.” And a poll by the University of Texas found that 57 percent of Texans believe that Texas state government is a good model for the other states to follow.”
Ironically, election officials in Atascosa County, Texas, are correcting an embarrassing mistake they have been making for years on absentee ballots. There is a flag printed on the ballot, but it turns out it is not the flag of Texas, which you see here. An astute Texas student studying in Japan was voting by absentee ballot when he noticed that the flag is actually the flag of the Republic of Chile. Yes, the country where the mine rescue has captured the world‘s attention.
The elections administrator blames a previous worker and said, “We just never caught it.” So, the last election in which the county will be glorifying Chile is November 2nd.
Coming up: we‘ll go live to Chile, Camp Hope, where the families of the miners have waited for 70 days and will soon be there no more. The rescue process has progressed faster than expected and all of the trapped miners are finally free and with their families. We‘ll have a live report from Kerry Sanders.
Also ahead: Carl Paladino has apologized for his anti-gay remarks on Sunday to a group of Jewish leaders. That apology has now upset the Jewish leaders Paladino met with. We‘ll talk to one of them, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: In the spotlight tonight, crazy Republican billionaire candidate for New York governor Carl Paladino finds himself in trouble after trying to apologize his way out of trouble. On Sunday, Rabbi Yehuda Levin showed his support for Paladino by inviting him to speak before a conservative religious audience at the Carlsberg (ph) Synagogue in Brooklyn.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARL PALADINO ®, CANDIDATE FOR NEW YORK GOVERNOR: I just think my children and your children would be much better off and much more successful getting married and raising a family. And I don‘t want them to be brainwashed into thinking that homosexuality is an equally valid or successful option. It isn‘t.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Many took issue with Paladino‘s surprising remarks, but none more than Paladino‘s openly gay nephew, Jeff Hannen (ph), who works on his campaign staff. Since Paladino‘s comments became public, Jeff Hannen has not shown up for work. Not even after Paladino stepped back from his remarks, releasing a statement reading, “I sincerely apologize for any comment that may have offended the gay and lesbian community or their family members. Any reference to branding an entire community based on a small representation of them is wrong. I am in support of civil agreements and equal rights for all citizens. If elected as your governor, I will stand and fight for all gay New Yorkers‘ rights.”
After reading the apology, Rabbi Levin felt betrayed by the candidate he endorsed and immediately called Paladino‘s campaign manager.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RABBI YEHUDA LEVIN, MEVAMSHEI HASHEM SYNAGOGUE: It was not a pleasant conversation, and I did not allow myself to be patronized. He had to do it because his gay nephew or his family told him so. He discovered now he has a gay nephew? Mazel tov, we‘ll have a coming out party. What does that have to do with the religious people in the state of New York. I don‘t get it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Joining me now, Rabbi Yehuda Levin, who also serves as a spokesman for the Rabbinical Alliance of America. Also, Rabbi David-Seth Kirshner from Temple Emanu-El, a conservative synagogue in New Jersey. He serves as an officer on the New York Board of Rabbis.
Thanks joining us, rabbis.
LEVIN: Thank you, Lawrence.
O‘DONNELL: Rabbi Levin, is it true that you actually wrote the statement that Carl Paladino gave at your synagogue?
LEVIN: There were two synagogue visits. First was Carlsberg. That was a statement I wrote. It included much of the—many of the stands, but it wasn‘t the controversial one. That took place in Williamsburg at Tosh Al (ph). For the last few days, everybody has been trying to find which mysterious stranger wrote the second one, which was even stronger.
What I said is, look, I‘m willing to defend the second one, but it happens to be that I didn‘t write the second one.
O‘DONNELL: And you—
LEVIN: I have no problem—I have ideas, but I‘m protecting the identity of the person who doesn‘t deserve to be bashed and harassed and his family. But it‘s very, very simple. There‘s no other word that‘s better than indoctrination of brainwashing for putting children in a classroom prison and forcing them to absorb what the politically correct homosexual version of sex education, where our sexual identities in flux, according to our doctors, until around the age of 20.
In Massachusetts, where they have gay marriage as the law of the state, parents are forced to have their children attend. There is a prominent case of somebody who tried to opt out. They faced prison and harassment charges and everything else.
We are the victims. I haven‘t seen an orthodox Jew beating up on a homosexual, calling them the kinds of names that I‘ve been receiving, F-you, pig, drop dead, die, just because I stand up for my religion. I‘m told that we‘re the violent ones, that we‘re encouraging the violence.
O‘DONNELL: You say you‘re standing up for your religion. Could you
clarify what is your religion on the matter of homosexuality? What do you
what are the religious teachings that you teach on the issue of homosexuality? Are you like some fundamentalist Christians who believe that all homosexuals are evil and will burn in hell forever?
LEVIN: No, it has nothing to do with the person. It has to do with acts of homosexuality are forbidden, just as we tell under aged acts—acts with under aged people is forbidden. As a matter of fact, the homosexual community in England wants to lower the age of sexual consent to 14, so that an 80-year-old man can pick up on a 14-year-old kid and the parents have nothing to say about it. It‘s intrinsically wrong.
O‘DONNELL: So a person can be gay, in your religious view? But they simply must not in any way physically act on it and have gay sex. And if they do have gay sex, what is your religious teaching about then what happens to them, either here or in the afterlife?
LEVIN: Again, the important thing is that it‘s a transgression like hundreds of other transgressions. But it is a severe transgression. On the holiest day of the year, Yom Kippur, day of atonement, the Torah portion we read is all of sexual licentiousness, starting with adultery and incest. And the last three in this order are adultery, homosexuality and bestiality.
So we get an idea that Biblically Torah speaking this is a very severe offense. That doesn‘t mean that we don‘t have the greatest compassion on those who have that particular drive, just like we have compassion on somebody who wants to do it with somebody else‘s wife. We have compassion, but we don‘t lower the standards for them. We don‘t certainly make something that is forbidden permitted. And we don‘t elevate to pride.
Any bedroom behavior or misbehavior is not a source of pride. Intellect, holiness, accomplishments for society, not what you do with your reproductive organs.
O‘DONNELL: Rabbi Kirshner, in scripture, as we‘ve just heard, homosexuality is on the same list as adultery. Does it belong on that same list? And is that the modern view, in your rabbinical view of this?
RABBI DAVID-SETH KIRSHNER, TEMPLE EMANU-EL SYNAGOGUE: In my rabbinical view, absolutely not. In my rabbinical view, the same text that we study on the holiday he speaks about, talks about, later loving our neighbors as we love ourselves. We read last week in synagogues around the world that we‘re all created in God‘s image.
And someone‘s sexual orientation is not a choice. Being gay is not a choice. And homosexuality is the civil rights issue of our generation. And Jews have always been at the forefront of issues on civil rights. That‘s why Martin Luther King, Jr. Stood shoulder to shoulder with Abraham Joshua Heschel. That‘s why Goodman and Schwerner were down with Chaney in Mississippi in ‘63. They even died on these issues.
And there are young boys and young girls who are killing themselves because of these issues of not feeling comfortable in their identity. Religion needs to be something that‘s a tool to help people cope with the world, not used as a weapon to beat people up.
O‘DONNELL: Just your sense, what is your sense of Jewish America? What percent see this as Rabbi Levin does? And what percent do you think see this the way you do?
KIRSHNER: I‘m glad you brought that up. You know, there are three major sects in Judaism. There‘s Reform, Conservative and Orthodox. Reform and conservative comprise more than two thirds of Judaism. And those—the majority of Reform and Conservative Judaism believes in full equal rights for gay people in our community. They believe in civil unions. They believe in equality.
And as they are in my congregation, we don‘t have a large constituency of openly gay people. But we have a full policy of embracing all people in God‘s image.
O‘DONNELL: Rabbi Levin, do you, like Carl Paladino, have any gay relatives?
LEVIN: Not that I know of, but I‘m sure at some point we do. The point is, David‘s a very nice fellow, but, David, this is cut and paste Judaism. When you take something as superficial as love thy neighbor as you love thyself, and you try to somehow that that koshers homosexual activity or adultery, that‘s not only a lack of scholarship, it‘s just fooling people.
Religion is not something you take a vote on. If you take a vote in popularity—So let‘s do it the right way. From Sinai until now, what was the overwhelming preponderance of his grandparents, great grandparents, great great grandparents and mine? All the Jews did not have any arguments about all this sexual behaviors, misbehaviors that are forbidden. Now—
O‘DONNELL: Rabbi, can I keep you in politics just for a second? We don‘t have much time left. Is there anyone you‘ve actually voted for on a New York ballot? Has there ever been anyone on a New York ballot in any office that agrees with you on this that you‘ve had a chance to vote for?
LEVIN: That is an excellent point. The answer to that is as follows:
over the—what has been so attractive about Carl Paladino, and I made this point, is his positions that he took Sunday with us—I give the man the greatest credit to carry a baby to term. He didn‘t drown the mother, and he didn‘t kill the innocent baby, Teddy. He was great. He was one in a million.
O‘DONNELL: So prior to Paladino‘s brief moment in your sun, there‘s never been—
LEVIN: No, many conservative and Republican candidates—and not so years ago, you know, I ran for mayor of New York against Ed Koch under—I was the Right to Life candidate in ‘85. And guess what, Ed Koch said partial birth abortion is murder. So here you have—
O‘DONNELL: But Ed Koch is fine with all other forms of abortion. So you could never support him. There‘s no one who has ever been on a New York ballot I can think of who fits your requirements.
LEVIN: Al D‘Amato. What are you talking about?
O‘DONNELL: Al D‘Amato was in favor of gay rights. What are you talking about?
LEVIN: Excuse me, sir. Al D‘Amato wasn‘t until the last few months, when he lost, and he was getting desperate.
O‘DONNELL: Did you know—when you endorsed Carl Paladino, did you know that he had sent and forwarded and enjoyed racist e-mails and pornographic e-mails, including one that involved a woman and a horse? And does that fall within acceptable—
LEVIN: Sure, let me respond to that—
O‘DONNELL: -- conduct under your—
(CROSS TALK)
LEVIN: Let me explain to you—
(CROSS TALK)
KIRSHNER: -- would say that bestiality is forbidden. We read that on our holiest of days.
LEVIN: I agree with you. I agree with you. Let me respond, please. Let me respond. Here‘s what we have—this takes a little bit of putting on our thinking cap. On the one hand, we have Andrew Cuomo, who is going to pass legislation.
O‘DONNELL: Did you know about the bestiality?
LEVIN: I did. And I wasn‘t happy about it.
O‘DONNELL: And you‘re OK with it?
LEVIN: I‘m not happy with it at all. No. But I knew this was a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) who fell short, like many, many people who view pornography. It‘s unfortunate. Shame on him. I discussed it with him.
O‘DONNELL: Did you discuss the bestiality one? What did he say?
LEVIN: -- and I said, now that you‘re going for higher office, for chief executive, do you want to defend your daughter from obscenity in the libraries? It‘s time to up the ante and to repent, to do something better. He agreed with me just this Sunday.
Now here‘s the deal, the thing that Paladino is better is I‘d rather have a person—try to get this—I‘d rather have a person who does all kinds of bad things in his private life, but publicly in terms of the legislation he will sponsor will be a hypocrite, but will let my children grow up—and that‘s the answer.
It‘s a million times more important. And by the way, a guy like that to carry the baby to term is one in a million. Everyone else, rich, wealthy, get rid of the evidence.
O‘DONNELL: Rabbi, there‘s an honest defense for you. He will back a hypocrite as long as the hypocrite in his private life is doing things that he will not support in his public life.
LEVIN: No.
O‘DONNELL: At least in his—
(CROSS TALK)
O‘DONNELL: You‘re getting half of what you want, right? A guy who is OK with you in his public life.
(CROSS TALK)
O‘DONNELL: What would your rabbinical teachings be about that?
KIRSHNER: This would be my rabbinical teachings, Lawrence, that while this man is—I love him for being created in the image of God, he doesn‘t represent the flavor of Judaism for me and for most of the Jewish people in the world.
For me, the most important thing in Judaism is the saving of a life. That‘s the most important thing. And when there are young people—and this month in particular, Tyler Clementi, who is from Rutgers—
(CROSS TALK)
KIRSHNER: -- and five or six young people who commit suicide because they‘re uncomfortable with their sexuality. We have a responsibility in religion to help save lives. That‘s why I‘m proud to be a Jew. And that‘s why I became a rabbi.
O‘DONNELL: Quickly, what is your position on abortion?
KIRSHNER: My position on abortion is it‘s the right of every person to choose, just as our Torah teaches us. There are many opportunity where the Torah allows people, should they need to have abortion, whether for health reasons, medical reasons, even financial reasons, emotional reasons, they are permitted to do so.
O‘DONNELL: It should come as no surprise to anyone watching that with two rabbis, we could go on for the rest of the hour. But we do have to move on. I thank you both rabbis for coming in tonight. I greatly appreciate your time tonight.
LEVIN: Thank you.
KIRSHNER: Thank you.
O‘DONNELL: Sarah Palin makes a strong statement on the separation of church and state, which earns her my agreement and tonight‘s Rewrite.
And the story that has captivated the world; we‘ll go live to Chile to talk with Kerry Sanders as the end of the rescue drama nears.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: Time for tonight‘s Rewrite. It‘s Sarah Palin‘s turn. But the thing is, I agree with her. And you do too. I know you don‘t think you do, but hear me out. I mean, hear her out.
Sarah Palin talked to the conservative website Newsmax, which posted the interview with the understated headline, “Breaking, Sarah Palin talks of Armageddon, Obama‘s Socialism, and Her Thoughts About 2012.” Palin warned that a nuclear Iran could lead to World War III and pointed out that Russia plays a critical role in making sure that doesn‘t happen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH PALIN, FORMER GOVERNOR OF ALASKA: We need to remind Russia that any assistance given to Ahmadinejad, given to Iran—we have to realize that, at the end of the day, a nuclear weapon in that country‘s hands is not just Israel‘s problem or America‘s problem; it is the world‘s problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: We do need to remind Russia about that. And the good news is, we do. I mean, the president does. And by the president, I mean every president. Bush did it every chance he got. And Obama does too.
So Sarah Palin is right on this one. Not exactly original, but she is right. And when Palin‘s right, Newsmax is right to present it as breaking news. She had more to say about war.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PALIN: I hate war. War is hell. We don‘t want war. We don‘t strive for war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Again, right on target. I agree with her, word for word. And if you don‘t, I‘m sure the History Channel has got some war footage you can revel in right now. Finally, though, Sarah Palin says she is deeply religious herself. Technically a Christian, not affiliated with any organized religion like Catholics, Lutherans or Presbyterians that might make serious demand on her attention. But she takes an unambiguous stand on the separation of church and state.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PALIN: Americans will never stand for Sharia law being the law of the land. Americans will not stand for this Because Americans are smart enough to know Sharia law, if that were to be adopted, allowed to govern in our country, it will be the downfall of America. And too many Americans are on to this already, and are starting to rise up and send that message to our federal officials and stay, you know, we will not put up with any hint of Sharia law being any sort of law of the land.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: I am so on board with that. Luckily, so are the founding fathers. They‘ve got us covered on this one with a little thing they like to call The constitution of the United States of America. I guess I do have one little rewrite note for Sarah Palin, just three little words: needless to say. That‘s what most of us say before we say something that everyone already knows and agrees with.
Of course, saying needless to say would make some of her statements seem a bit less scary to the very, very few people who can be scared by such innocuous language. And if she is trying to scare people that way, these statements don‘t qualify for the label fear mongering. You can‘t scare anyone who already knows we have a Constitution with talk of Sharia law becoming the law of the land.
That‘s not fear mongering. That‘s moron mongering.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: Twenty two hours after the first miner in stepped off the Fenix Capsule and out of the San Jose Copper Mine in Copiapo, Chile, the 70-day saga of the 33 trapped miners is over. Fifty four-year-old Luis Urzua came out of the mine at 8:55 Eastern time tonight. He was the shift supervisor at the time of the collapse, and is credited with getting his team to safety, saving their lives.
As the last man out, he also gets the honor of breaking the world record for the longest time being underground and surviving. Here is the moment of his rescue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERING)
(FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: it is not completely over yet. Rescuers in the mine now have to make their way back up to the surface. NBC‘s Kerry Sanders is live in Copiapo, Chile. Kerry, what is the latest update on how many rescuers are still down there? And what is left of this operation?
KERRY SANDERS, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: There is one rescuer left down in the mine. The other one is now in the Fenix Two, making his way to the surface. This ordeal, when that final rescuer gets to the surface, ends. A remarkable story, a historic triumph; 33 men who survived 70 days in what were considered impossible conditions.
For the first 17 days down there, cut off from the outside world, with only two days of food rations, somehow making those peaches and tuna last long enough, until they got contact with the outside world. And then for the next remaining days, teams on the surface racing to drill down. Teams from South Africa, the United States, from Canada all working. It was the American team that was able to eventually drill a wide enough hole to get to them first, to set the stage for this incredible and very emotional and dramatic rescue.
A country and really the eyes of the world watching every one of those miners coming to the surface, starting with 31-year-old Florencio Avalos, and ending up with Luis Urzua, as you mentioned, the ship commander, sort of like the captain of the ship, the last one out, the last one up.
And collectively, these men, including the one from Bolivia, 32 Chileans—but all 33 miners brothers who have experienced something that nobody else has. And collectively showing a will of survival while those on the surface, more than 1,000 engineers, did everything they could to save the lives down below. And God bless them. With the help of experts from around the world, they did it. It‘s a really significant—
O‘DONNELL: Kerry, I‘ll never forget that emotional outburst last night when that first miner made it to the top as we were covering live here. What was it like when the last miner made it to the top?
SANDERS: Exactly the same. I mean, the president remained—Chile‘s president, Sebastian Pinera, he remained awake and there and greeted every one of those who came to the surface here. And it started with about an hour and 15 minutes between each one coming up. And before you knew it, they were coming up in less than 45 minutes to the surface.
And when the last one came up, it was a huge celebration in this country. Hugs, kisses, music. Just about everything that you can imagine here. Very, very important day for this country and I think for human spirit.
O‘DONNELL: And what happens to them after this? They‘ll be in some medical rehabilitation for how many days?
SANDERS: It‘s for two days. They‘re not going to be really out in society too much. As you saw, they were wearing sunglasses when they came up. They were flown by the helicopters over to the hospital. The hospital has a special film that they put on the windows to keep the light from causing any problems. They think that will take about 48 hours.
And now they have the people like me, reporter who want to talk to them, and movie producers and book writers and a lot of people, Lawrence.
O‘DONNELL: Kerry Sanders, an amazing job for us down there. Thank you very much, Kerry.
You can have THE LAST WORD online at our blog, TheLastWord.MSNBC.com. Or you can follow my occasional Tweets @Lawrence. That‘s tonight‘s LAST WORD. “COUNTDOWN” is up next.
END
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