Guests: Isabel Macdonald, Lou Dobbs, Claudia, Todd Purdum
LAWRENCE O‘DONNELL, HOST: If you are America‘s loudest and most recognizable proponent of the crack down on immigration and border security, an advocate for jailing people who hire undocumented workers, what happens when you are accused of hiring undocumented workers?
If you‘re Lou Dobbs, you come on this program the day the story breaks to confront the reporter who did the investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, RADIO HOST: I want the borders under our control.
There is no way to control immigration.
Secure the border. Secure the ports. Do the right thing and let‘s move forward.
O‘DONNELL (voice-over): The leader of the border war is now in the middle of his own fight.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Nation investigated labor practices, but without undocumented immigrants, just who would look after his properties?
O‘DONNELL: The accusation: Lou Dobbs uses illegal immigrants to maintain his homes and to care for the show horses his daughter rides around the world, even after he called for the arrest of people who hire illegal workers.
DOBBS: If you think that economics justifies breaking the law, then just go on record and say so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I worked for one year with Lou Dobbs‘s horses.
O‘DONNELL: But Dobbs‘s rhetoric continued to fuel the fire.
DOBBS: Arizona‘s governor still wants a crack down on illegal immigration.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Illegals sneaking across our border. And to give the illegals Social Security benefits.
SHARRON ANGLE (R-NV), SENATE CANDIDATE: I‘m Sharron Angle and I approve this message.
BILL O‘REILLY, HOST, “THE O‘REILLY FACTOR”: Are you trafficking on the illegal alien issue?
ANGLE: Nevadans believe that their jobs are being given to illegal aliens.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN ®, ARIZONA: Complete the dang fence.
O‘DONNELL: The media adds Lou Dobbs to the list of anti-illegal worker hypocrites.
MEG WHITMAN (R-CA), GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: I‘d like to secure the border. If you hold employers accountable for hiring undocumented workers, many of these individuals and families will end up going home.
GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: Meg Whitman lied to the press.
NICKY DIAZ SANTILLAN, FORMER WHITMAN HOUSEKEEPER: She want throw me away like a piece of garbage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The hypocrisy is absolutely stunning and breathtaking.
DOBBS: And this debate on illegal immigration and border security, Lawrence, there is great fiction. There is great artifice.
SETH MYERS, “SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE”: Can we all agree that there‘s nothing more Nazi than saying, show me your papers? So heads up, Arizona, that‘s fascism.
O‘DONNELL: Good evening from New York. I‘m Lawrence O‘Donnell. A new article in The Nation magazine alleges that undocumented immigrants worked in the gardens and horse stables of the media‘s leading anti-illegal immigration crusader, Lou Dobbs. He has said that, quote: “illegal employers who hire illegal aliens should face felony charges.”
Let‘s see if Lou is ready to turn himself in.
Joining me now is Isabel Macdonald from The Nation, whose year-long investigation into Lou Dobbs‘s employment practices, including interviews she conducted with five immigrants who worked on his properties without papers, is in the magazine now.
And to respond, joining us from his New Jersey home, Lou Dobbs.
Now, Lou you are only the second person to do two appearances on this show. We‘re going to give you complete chance to—to deal with this. And as you know, in court rooms, prosecution goes first.
So I‘m going to have Isabel make her case first, briefly, and then have you respond to that. Is that all right, Lou?
DOBBS: I—I will brace myself.
O‘DONNELL: All right. And I know you‘ve been on the radio together already. You invited Isabel on your radio show today. I‘ve heard some of that exchange already. So this is round two. This is follow-up from your radio show.
Isabel, what is the basic case that you—you came up with in this year-long investigation?
ISABEL MACDONALD, THE NATION: Well, in my investigation, which included interviews with five workers who told me that they had worked while undocumented caring for Lou Dobbs‘s show-jumping horses and for his property, I found that Lou Dobbs, who had made himself an emblem of this get-tough approach to immigration, including advocating—and advocating, as you mentioned, Lawrence, for felony charges to be used against employers who hire undocumented workers.
I found that Lou Dobbs, himself, had been exploiting undocumented labor. And the question that I‘m really still hoping for an answer for, and I‘m hoping that—that Mr. Dobbs can provide us with an answer to, is where does the buck stop?
I mean, Lou made himself an emblem of this approach to immigration and he has not actually responded to the substantive evidence I present that there were at least five undocumented workers who cared for his show-jumping horses and who cared for the grounds of his estate in Florida.
O‘DONNELL: Lou, undocumented workers caring for your horses and the grounds of your home.
DOBBS: What Isabel forgot to put in her story was the fact that Missy Clark (ph), the head of North Run Stables (ph), which is my—my 22-year-old daughter‘s chief trainer, those—those folks who take care of the horses, grooms, and caretakers are all legal and have been for several years and—in every case.
Secondly, I‘m an emblem of what? I have been—and she neglected, I think she will acknowledge, to point out, I‘ve been working very hard for the past year trying to come up with a compromise on illegal immigration, border security amongst all factions, trying to bring those relevant parties to the table.
And what she also neglected to put straightforwardly out there is—and as she agreed on my broadcast, she is not accusing me nor have I ever hired an illegal immigrant, nor has any company that I own ever hired an illegal immigrant.
So I think we need to understand what her point is because it must be larger than what is being bandied around the mainstream media which has leaped on this to suggest that I‘m some sort of hypocrite. You know, it—it‘s astounding. I have never hired an illegal immigrant nor has any company that I own.
And to suggest otherwise is just—you know, it‘s absurd.
O‘DONNELL: OK. Isabel, what is your proof that Lou has hired these illegal workers?
MACDONALD: The testimony that I got from the workers who have labored
on his estate and labored with his show-jumping horses. I think we need to
we need to be clear that Lou is splitting hairs here, Lawrence. He has.
O‘DONNELL: Well, wait. This is—this is pretty simple. Lou, as she says, there are people that she has spoken to who have worked at your home who are illegal. That means you‘ve hired these illegal workers working at your home, doesn‘t it? If what they are telling her is true.
DOBBS: I think you‘re—I would say that that is categorically wrong. It fails logically and—and just straight forward causality.
The only person who would have been an illegal in any context would have been a landscaper who was working for the contractor working on my house in Florida. That may have happened. But that isn‘t my employee nor is it the reason I would have contracted with that landscaper.
And to suggest I hired the person who is illegal if, indeed, she can document there was someone illegal, is an absurdity. I absolutely did not.
O‘DONNELL: Well, Lou, let me just—let‘s dig—let‘s get into this because.
DOBBS: So maybe there‘s some—maybe there‘s some fine point there that you would like to straighten out for me. I‘m telling you point blank. I‘ve never done so.
O‘DONNELL: Well, I‘m going to—I‘m going to quote something you said on your radio show today while talking to Isabel on your radio show. You said, I‘m quoting you, that you have never, quote, “directly or indirectly hired an undocumented worker.”
Now, if you‘re now saying.
DOBBS: Right, right.
O‘DONNELL: . that it is possible that someone hired by your landscaping contractor had an undocumented worker on your property, that, Lou, is indirectly.
DOBBS: No.
O‘DONNELL: . hiring that worker.
DOBBS: OK. OK. If you want to be—you know, if you really want to go there semantically.
O‘DONNELL: I‘m just using your words to make the point.
DOBBS: The point—the point—please. Let‘s try to get to the reality here. What I mean by “indirectly” is intentionally hiring a contractor who—for the specific purpose of hiring an illegal immigrant.
O‘DONNELL: So intent, it‘s a.
DOBBS: I have never done that, either directly or indirectly.
O‘DONNELL: . that we‘re talking about. OK.
DOBBS: Exactly.
O‘DONNELL: Isabel, what‘s your response to that?
MACDONALD: Well, Lou, you‘re holding yourself to a completely different standard than the standards that you‘ve held all other American employers to.
I mean, for instance, on your show on June 7th.
DOBBS: Like whom?
MACDONALD: . 2007, you called employers ridiculous for insisting that they should not have to be held accountable for their contractors‘ employees.
I mean, Lou, the—does the buck stop with you or not? I think the American public deserves to know.
DOBBS: Well, I think that the American public deserves a lot of things and amongst the things that the American public deserves is honest and straightforward answer and understanding of the issue.
What I had said and will continue to maintain is that we cannot possibly reform immigration in this country, immigration policies, regulations and law, unless we can control immigration.
And we cannot control immigration, Isabel, if we do not control our borders and our ports. That syllogism, that logic remains in effect.
At no time—because, I mean, you‘re taking on this cause celebre as if I‘m not working hard to create a solution. At no time have you heard me call for the deportation, in this entire debate, of a single illegal immigrant, nor will you ever.
I have also—and you neglected again to point this out, I have maintained throughout that the only rational actor in this entire crisis is the illegal immigrant himself and herself.
And we have to be working toward a solution. But until all factions understand they‘re not going to get a whole loaf and that a compromise must be required to get us to move ahead here, we‘re not going to get much done.
I want to change that. I‘ve been working hard to do it. And you neglected to even mention that.
O‘DONNELL: Lou, I want to get—I just want to stay inside the details.
DOBBS: Sure.
O‘DONNELL: . of what this case is. Isabel.
DOBBS: Sure.
O‘DONNELL: . has spoken to workers.
DOBBS: First of all, it‘s not a case. Wait a minute Lawrence, it‘s not a case. This is a hit job by The Nation. It is a left-wing activist advocacy publication. I‘ve got no problem with that.
O‘DONNELL: Lou, you‘re on.
DOBBS: But distorting what it is, I do have a problem with.
O‘DONNELL: Lou, you‘re on trial for hypocrisy here in the court of public opinion. That‘s the case. So—so but the point is this, that Isabel in her reporting has spoken to people who say they have worked on your landscaping. They have worked on your property. And they have said that they are undocumented illegal workers.
Now, you have said that.
DOBBS: And so what? And so what?
O‘DONNELL: OK. Well, you.
DOBBS: So what?
O‘DONNELL: So what isn‘t.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: How would I know that.
O‘DONNELL: Now your response to that is, so what?
DOBBS: Excuse me. How would I know that?
O‘DONNELL: OK. Let‘s talk about that because I want to go to something that you said. And I want to play something you said on this show on your previous appearance on this show Monday.
DOBBS: Surely.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Hotels, construction, landscaping in this country, those are the highest concentration of illegal laborers in this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: And we—and Lou, we all agree with that. Landscaping.
DOBBS: Right.
O‘DONNELL: Highest concentration of illegal workers. You look at the landscapers on your property. The—the crew shows up, the contractor, you know, makes the deal with you. And you look out there and you say to him, are all of these people legal? Can you—can you document for me that all of these people are legal?”
Why wouldn‘t you do that? You know. You know, landscaping is exactly where they‘re going to end up in your employ.
DOBBS: Lawrence, you know what? I‘m—as you suggest, I‘m on trial in the court of public opinion. You—look, you‘re on trial every night. So am I. The reality is this, there is a law against you or me inquiring about a legal status for a person in this country unless we are participants in a 287(g) program, or we‘re in law enforcement, unless we‘re in Immigrations and Customs Enforcement, or if we have a law enforcement responsibility at the border.
You‘re suggesting, as some advocates would say, a nativist outlook where you‘re going to demand to know what a person‘s status is. That‘s a violation of their rights. You can‘t have it both ways, Lawrence.
This business of hypocrisy is overwhelming because The Nation is stamped with it, trying to attack me for its own purposes, presumably part of it is fundraising. I don‘t know.
But for—for The Nation and for you to ignore the fact that I have been working diligently, trying to come up with a solution here, a workable solution for the past four years and—and with great diligence over the past year.
I mean, I don‘t think that‘s fair and I don‘t—and I think that you‘re now on trial in the court of—of decency and common sense. I mean, what in the world is the point of it all?
O‘DONNELL: Well, we are trying to keep this decent and common-sensical. But, Lou, as you know, I live in California. For me to work at Warner Brothers.
DOBBS: Well, there goes that case, Lawrence.
O‘DONNELL: Right. For me to work at Warner Brothers, as I have several times, and other studios in California, I have had to show them my passport and fill out a form proving that I was a legal worker. And to go.
DOBBS: Good for you.
O‘DONNELL: . on into these other areas you‘re talking about. I can tell you that in California, domestic service agencies will show you the documentation of their workers. And in fact, they advertise and they—they promote their business on the fact that we can guarantee you absolutely legal workers.
So this is.
DOBBS: Terrific.
O‘DONNELL: . screened, and this is done for landscaping and other domestic services like that around the country. So let‘s not pretend.
DOBBS: So explain something to me.
O‘DONNELL: . that it isn‘t possible to check this out.
DOBBS: .then, Lawrence. If that is so effective, why does California have the highest concentration of illegal immigrants in the country?
O‘DONNELL: Because, Lou, you know, you know why.
DOBBS: Oh, and most of them working.
O‘DONNELL: Because people don‘t like paying.
DOBBS: I‘m—I‘m just asking.
O‘DONNELL: People don‘t like paying that higher wage for the legal worker. Isabel, isn‘t that.
DOBBS: No, but you were suggesting that there.
O‘DONNELL: . part of this story?
DOBBS: . was a guaranteed process that.
O‘DONNELL: That the higher wage for the legal worker is what makes the illegal worker attractive in the landscaping business.
MACDONALD: Yes, I think we need to look at the fundamental issue of demand. And I think if you look at—I mean, I‘m not saying, oh, Lou, is a bad person, he‘s a bad man because he had contact with undocumented workers. That‘s not the point of the article.
The point of the article is to show that even Lou Dobbs, the emblem of this get tough approach to immigration enforcement, even he has been unable to manage his own property.
DOBBS: Well, wait a minute. I‘m a little lost.
MACDONALD: . in such a way that there are not.
DOBBS: Where—where is the get tough approach?
MACDONALD: . undocumented workers.
DOBBS: Where is the get tough—now wait a minute. Wait a minute.
MACDONALD: Lou, just let me—could you just let me finish?
DOBBS: If I may—may I? May I?
MACDONALD: No, could I—I‘m just finishing.
O‘DONNELL: A couple of more sentences from Isabel, and then I want to get to your point, Lou, about your get tough approach.
DOBBS: Very simply.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I‘ve never called for that.
O‘DONNELL: Just let Isabel finish and then we will get to that, Lou, absolutely.
DOBBS: You got it. You got it.
MACDONALD: I think that Lou is the victim of his own completely unrealistic rhetoric. And if we want to find solutions to immigration, we have to start with reality. We have to start with the reality of what goes on in our own backyards, what goes on in the cities of America. And we need to recognize that there are millions of people who have been criminalized for working for people like Lou.
And we need to give them a chance to come out of the shadows because the real problem here, and I think this is something that Lou has been getting at over the years, though I think he has misguided us because he has used this—this very black and white rhetoric about immigration, but the problem with having such huge parts of sectors like landscaping in the shadows is that workers don‘t have adequate protection.
And we need a way to bring people out of the shadows so that they have better protection and so that everybody can enjoy a living wage in this country.
O‘DONNELL: Lou, can you stay with us and respond to this after a break? Can you let me get a commercial break in here?
DOBBS: It would be my pleasure.
O‘DONNELL: OK. Lou—Lou Dobbs, Isabel MacDonnell, we will be back. We‘re going to go to a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: The Nation magazine reports that undocumented immigrants worked on Lou Dobbs‘s property. Our exclusive conversation with Lou Dobbs and report Isabel Macdonald continues after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: We‘re back on THE LAST WORD with Isabel MacDonald and Lou Dobbs. Isabel Macdonald, a reporter for The Nation who has done a year-long investigation into Lou Dobbs‘s employment practices, and has discovered illegal workers in some of Lou Dobbs‘s horse stables and possibly at his homes doing landscaping.
Lou, Isabel had made a point before the break that you wanted to respond to and expand on. Please go ahead.
DOBBS: Very simply, I have hired no illegal immigrants, no company of mine has hired illegal immigrants, and that is the essential fact.
Thirdly, there is a—a number of giant omissions in her story, among the fact—among those, the fact that she misrepresented what the story was about to a number of people in the horse industry, suggesting it was about getting visas for illegal immigrants.
But all of that aside, the reality is I am a target for The Nation because they are a left-wing activist advocacy publication, and I have no problem with that. But the fact that she has admitted that I have done absolutely nothing wrong, I have done absolutely nothing illegal, seems to be something that, you know, people want to avoid here.
The bottom line is, I have done nothing...
O‘DONNELL: Where was that admission? I didn‘t hear that admission?
DOBBS: . illegal.
O‘DONNELL: But I didn‘t hear that admission.
DOBBS: You didn‘t hear her say that.
O‘DONNELL: Go ahead, Lou.
DOBBS: You didn‘t hear her say—well, let‘s try it right now.
Isabel, did you not say that you had no evidence whatsoever that I had ever hired an illegal immigrant, either personally or through one of my companies?
MACDONALD: Lou, you have a lot more experience with doing broadcast than me, and I got caught up in your—in your hair-splitting earlier. And I will grant you...
DOBBS: Well, I‘m not splitting hairs now, did I or did I not?
MACDONALD: . that I don‘t have evidence—I don‘t have evidence that you directly, knowingly employed any undocumented worker. All I‘m saying is that they labored on your property. And the question that I‘m wanting you to answer is, where does the buck stop, Lou?
You became an emblem for a hard-line approach to immigration enforcement and you‘re holding yourself to a totally different standard. You never—you never made allowances for employers who relied on...
DOBBS: What—what standard have I.
MACDONALD: . subcontracted, undocumented workers.
DOBBS: I‘m sorry...
MACDONALD: . before. Why should we grant you this?
DOBBS: I‘m sorry, Lawrence. I thought you said...
O‘DONNELL: Go ahead, Lou. Go ahead, your turn.
DOBBS: Well, I guess the reason is very simple. No one who has ever not hired an illegal immigrant—no one who has ever not hired an illegal immigrant through their companies would not in any way be responsible for the hiring of an illegal immigrant.
That seems straightforward and hardly a matter of splitting hairs. It seems purely straight forward and reasonable. Does it not?
O‘DONNELL: I think we‘re—Lou, I have to rule that we‘re splitting hairs. The judge rules we‘re splitting hairs. Because especially when on this show you said, you know, that you‘ve never directly—or on your radio show today you said you‘ve never directly or indirectly.
We all indirectly employ, hire, pay, give money to illegal aliens.
When I go to the car wash on Venture Boulevard...
DOBBS: Now wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa.
O‘DONNELL: . and my car is getting cleaned by those guys and I slip them cash.
DOBBS: That‘s a different statement, Lawrence, please.
O‘DONNELL: I know who I‘m giving money to, don‘t I?
DOBBS: I don‘t know that you do.
O‘DONNELL: But they are indirectly working for me, cleaning my car. They are indirectly working for me at restaurants. They are indirectly in our lives, at minimum indirectly they are in all of our lives providing services.
DOBBS: Lawrence there are 12 million to 20 million illegal immigrants in this country. We are trying hard to come up with a solution. We would not be doing so if they were not in this country. And they would not be in this country if illegal employers were not illegally employing them.
Those illegal employers, by the way, hire them directly, whether it is a chicken processing plant, whether it is a construction company. But when you attack me.
O‘DONNELL: OK. Can we stop there. What do you call the people?
DOBBS: You‘re attacking me because of my name and my standing.
O‘DONNELL: What do you call the people who hire the illegal employers? What do you call the people who...
DOBBS: I‘m sorry?
O‘DONNELL: What do you call the people who hire the illegal employers?
DOBBS: The hiring of illegal employers?
O‘DONNELL: Yes. If I hire a contractor to do my landscaping, and that contractor is what you call an illegal employer, what do you call me?
DOBBS: You tell me? What would you.
O‘DONNELL: What they‘re calling you Lou is...
DOBBS: You‘re the judge, you tell me.
O‘DONNELL: Well, what they‘re calling you on this case is a hypocrite if you did that. You do—what I‘m agreeing to is you absolutely didn‘t commit a crime if you did that. I‘m agreeing to that. But when you take to the pulpit and preach what you‘ve preached, you‘ve got to be—you‘ve got to understand why people think this is a hypocritical outcome.
That Isabel would be able to find..
DOBBS: A hypocritical outcome?
O‘DONNELL: If Isabel was able to find illegal workers on your property...
DOBBS: If The Nation just discovered—I‘m sorry.
O‘DONNELL: If Isabel was able to find illegal workers on your property, you recognize what that means in terms of your—both your public image and its—the way it doesn‘t fit with your public statements.
DOBBS: Well, again, let‘s go through the facts. There is no evidence whatsoever that I‘ve ever hired an illegal immigrant, because I never have. And if you want to hold me to a different and higher standard, you go right ahead.
O‘DONNELL: No, let‘s grant that. Let‘s grant that point for the rest of this interview.
DOBBS: If that‘s convenient to a political and ideological case.
O‘DONNELL: We‘re going to grant that point for the rest of the interview.
DOBBS: Well, that‘s very generous of you.
O‘DONNELL: And now what I want to do is examine. Because you—I mean, you spent a lot of time thinking about this subject and I want you to think about the subject with one more dimension.
You‘ve talked about these illegal employers and we‘re all going to agree that the employers who do this knowingly and illegally in order to exploit that cheap labor, that is illegal and that is a different class of activity of what we might be talking about tonight.
DOBBS: Yes. By the way.
O‘DONNELL: What we also know.
DOBBS: . it‘s more complicated even than that, but that‘s all right.
O‘DONNELL: Sure. So let‘s complicate it. Let‘s do one more level of complication. Let‘s talk about the people who hire contractors who have themselves—and those contractors are filed with illegal workers.
What do you call the people who hire contractors who use illegal workers? What are they in the Lou Dobbs lexicon of bad players?
DOBBS: They have no—they have no standing of any kind.
O‘DONNELL: Huh?
DOBBS: They have no standing of any kind. They‘re committing no misdemeanor, felony, or wrong.
O‘DONNELL: So that‘s OK with Lou? Is that OK with Lou?
DOBBS: Is it OK with me? Lawrence, if it were OK with me we wouldn‘t be having the discussion. But when you talk about 12 million to 20 million Americans, what would you call a solution? What would you recommend—your recommendation be?
My recommendation has been this. A rational, effective humane reform of our immigration system and—and enforcement of our security at the border and ports. Now if you find something wrong with that or defiant in reason or approach, you know, I‘d be delighted, I‘d be the first to say, bring on your solution.
Because we‘ve been struggling as a country for four years, and the
fact of the matter is, the socio-ethnocentric interest groups, the business
groups, the open borders groups, the amnesty groups, each of them is
conspiring through their own pigheadedness and their seeking of the whole
loaf instead of a compromise, they are hurting the illegal immigrants now
in this country, and they are hurting this economy and our society by the -
by the strategies they‘re pursuing.
Why in the world should we be four years later having a discussion about what we‘re going to do about immigration and border security?
We have brought in more illegal immigrants. Their condition has worsened. Our border security is still not in place. Our port security is worse, if anything. And we are having discussions from The Nation about whether or not three people had documents who were, you know, working on my lawn in Florida.
It‘s utter madness. And the real absurdity, I think, Lawrence, is that the mainstream media buys into this bull and carries the nonsense along as if it were logical, reasonable, and had anything to do with law or breaking of the law. When in fact it had nothing to do with anything other, in my opinion, than using my name perhaps to do a little fundraising for The Nation.
O‘DONNELL: All right. Well, The Nation has done a lot more on the immigration subject than just how many illegal workers does Lou Dobbs have.
DOBBS: Sure.
O‘DONNELL: But let‘s get to the larger subject here. And.
DOBBS: Well, I‘m just talking about the latest edition.
O‘DONNELL: . the article is available at thenation.com. I want anyone who is interested in the evidence to get into the article and dig into it and make your own judgments out what you‘re reading.
DOBBS: Absolutely.
O‘DONNELL: Isabel, there is a larger issue here, and Lou‘s right about that. There are humane solutions or propositions that have been advanced about this. They tend to get shouted down in the politics of this in terms of let‘s just seal the border.
John McCain‘s humane policy has just become, you know, “build the dang fence.” That‘s his policy now. And it is your position that Lou Dobbs and the rhetoric that he has supported and others have joined in the chorus of is part of what has actually led to an oversimplification of this discussion and a reduction to nothing but build the damn fence.
MACDONALD: Absolutely. I mean, I appreciate that Lou has repositioned himself on this issue. And I think it‘s wonderful that, for instance, he is no longer using the term “illegal aliens.” I think this is a great move. I think we could actually go further and stop using the term “illegal” altogether. But...
(LAUGHTER)
O‘DONNELL: Lou is not going that far. Go ahead.
MACDONALD: Yes, we have to also acknowledge.
DOBBS: Well, I mean, you can drop the expression “immigrant,” I guess.
MACDONALD: . the fact that Lou Dobbs—the last time there was a comprehensive immigration reform proposal on the table, Lou Dobbs had denounced it on an almost nightly basis on CNN as an amnesty agenda that should be rejected.
DOBBS: Yes.
MACDONALD: So I think that we need to be accountable for what we say, especially when we have such a large platform as what Lou Dobbs has had for years on the issue of immigration.
All I‘m saying is we need to start with reality. And even now, when Lou Dobbs says we need to first secure the border, we have to look at the fact that there is—there was—I talked to a stable worker who had crossed the border to work with Lou Dobbs‘ million dollar show jumping horses.
We have to address the demand. And Lou Dobbs, in many ways, typifies the demand for undocumented labor. It‘s America‘s wealthy elites who most depend on that labor. And you can‘t, on the one hand, criminalize these workers and at the same time exploit them.
Lou Dobbs, you can‘t have your cake and eat it, too.
DOBBS: When have I ever suggested criminalizing an illegal immigrant.
When?
MACDONALD: You actually had—you had suggested on CNN in 2006 -- you had suggested that the deportation of—
O‘DONNELL: Let‘s cut that—people can go to Google and find out exactly what Lou has been arguing. All of his comments have been public for years. Lou, we‘re running out of time here. I want you to just—one more point from you. You‘re going to be addressing the Tea Party this weekend. Are you going to tell them that you‘re in favor of a humane immigration solution?
And are you going to tell them what you know, which is the Obama administration has cracked down on boarder security much tougher than the Bush administration ever did, and is sending back far more people back across that border than the Bush administration ever did?
DOBBS: The answer to the first part your question, Lawrence, is this:
I‘m going to talk about what I‘ve been talking about for several years now, which is a rational, effective, humane immigration policy. I‘m also going to talk very seriously about border security. And I‘m going to talk as well very seriously about the responsibilities of the government of Mexico to its people, and the responsibility of the United States to end its patronizing, condescending foreign policy towards the government of Mexico, in the interest of both nations and both peoples.
I‘m going to be talking very straightforwardly about what I think are the best solutions available to us to end this crisis, and to move ahead in this situation.
O‘DONNELL: And THE LAST WORD hypocrisy court room, the defendant always gets THE LAST WORD. Lou, that‘s it. You get THE LAST WORD tonight. And Isabel MacDonald of “The Nation,” thank you both very much for joining us for this special extended interview tonight. Thank you.
The employment of undocumented workers has put the campaign of Meg Whitman on the defensive in California. At the height of the controversy, an undocumented honor student mustered the courage to confronts Whitman on her immigration positions. I‘ll have an exclusive interview with that student next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: As California‘s Republican candidate for governor tries to get past her own problem with hiring an undocumented worker as a housekeeper, she tells an undocumented honor‘s student that she should be kicked out of country. I‘ll talk to that student next.
And Senator John McCain has reversed course on his immigration views. And that has “Vanity Fair” reporting that he‘s reversed course on that whole Maverick thing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: The immigration issue is, of course, playing a huge role in this year‘s campaign, especially in the southwestern border states. Republican billionaire candidate for California governor Meg Whitman is facing allegation that she knowingly employed an undocumented housekeeper for nine years. The “Sacramento Bee” newspaper has reported between 1979 and 2008, Whitman only voted in a handful of elections. Now suddenly interested in the political process, she has spent over 120 million dollars from her own fortune trying to get elected governor.
And she‘s trying to court Latino voters, complete with a Spanish language website and political ads in Spanish. But Whitman came face to face with the reality of the undocumented life in this country. An undocumented university student directly affected by our nation‘s broken immigration policy at a Spanish language debate against her opponent, the state‘s Democratic Attorney General Jerry Brown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLAUDIA, UNDOCUMENTED COLLEGE STUDENT: My question for you is the following: as governor of the state of California, would you support yes or no Dream Act—the Federal Dream Act that would help students that are in my same situation and place to be in the path of legalization? Thank you.
MEG WHITMAN ®, CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA: First of all, I am so pleased by your success and that you were able to get a kindergarten through 12th grade education in the system in California, even though you were undocumented. But here‘s the challenge we face: our resources are scarce. We‘re in terrible economic times. And California citizens have been denied admission to these universities.
And I don‘t think it‘s fair to bar and eliminate the ability of California citizens to attend higher universities and favor undocumenteds. This is a very tough situation. But I don‘t think it‘s fair to the people who are here in California legally.
So I would not be for the California Dream Act and for the Federal Dream Act. It is on a partial solve to a very challenging situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: The university student who asked Meg Whitman that question graduated from a California public high school as valedictorian of her class. She will soon graduate from Fresno State University with honors.
And she joins me now here in studio. She has asked that we take the necessary steps to hide her identity because of her undocumented status. Let‘s talk about that point that Meg Whitman made about the notion that undocumented students in California are taking places in the university system that could otherwise go to California citizens.
CLAUDIA: I think that argument is very wrong, because we are not accepted into colleges and universities in California based on our status. We‘re not asked whether we‘re documented or undocumented when we apply to a college or a university. I, in fact, applied to several, and I got accepted to all of them.
So we get into university not because of our status, but because we deserve to be in a university. In my case, like you said, I had excellent grades. I was involved in my community. And I did community service like any other student would in this country to get into a college. So I think by her saying that we are taking the spot of somebody else, we are not. We deserved our spot because we earned it.
O‘DONNELL: And the statistics show that the undocumented students in the California system number in the hundreds. It‘s a tiny fraction of one percent of the entire student population, as far as anyone can tell at this point. What does Meg Whitman need to know that she doesn‘t know about what it‘s like for you coming to this country, not speaking a word of English, entering the public school system now, the university system, achieving what you‘ve achieved with honors academically? What that climb has been for you?
What do you think Meg Whitman doesn‘t understand about that?
CLAUDIA: I think she doesn‘t understand our experience as undocumented people. Although we came undocumented, we have been able to incorporate ourselves into the society, to learn English, which is one of the arguments against undocumented people. We have been in schools. We have become friends with American people.
If we walk on the street, nobody can tell the difference, because we are acculturated into this society. We also have to work very hard for our education. We don‘t just get it for free, like she said.
My parents have paid taxes every single year they have been in this country, and so have my siblings. I have to work up to two jobs every semester to pay for my tuition and my fees. I have to study full time and work. I am not taking anything for free.
O‘DONNELL: And you‘re the young nest your family. You‘re the first to get to college?
CLAUDIA: Yes.
O‘DONNELL: What would the Dream Act do for you.
CLAUDIA: The dream act would give me a path to legalization. It would not guarantee it.
O‘DONNELL: What would you have to do through the Dream Act to get to legalization?
CLAUDIA: The Dream Act has two options. You could either attend a four year university for two years or join the Army—the military for two years. And after that, it would give us temporary legal status for six years. And that would be the next step.
So it‘s not an automatic legalization. It‘s a process, but it would give me a path to legalization.
O‘DONNELL: What do you think you‘re going to do when you graduate without a Dream Act? How do you think you‘ll make your way in the work force?
CLAUDIA: If I don‘t receive the opportunity to legalize my status, I will probably have to go back and work in the same thing that my parents do or that any other undocumented person does. And that is agriculture work or any unskilled sector of society.
So it would really throw away all my hard work and all my education, because I would not have the opportunity to be a part of the workforce in what I studied.
O‘DONNELL: Thank you very much for coming in and letting Meg Whitman know what she does need to know about this.
Coming up, “Vanity Fair” sheds light on the real John McCain. Was America fooled by the media‘s Maverick title?
And in the Rewrite, conservatives generally don‘t like the idea of too much government. So maybe they haven‘t thought through their plan about government regulating homosexuality.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: Time for tonight‘s Rewrite. We take on a sensitive matter that was not handled with care. Conservative and self-described historian David Barton also thinks of himself as a public health expert. If that name rings a bell, he‘s a good friend of Glenn Beck‘s, appearing on his show several times, and serving as a professor for Beck‘s online university.
Many of his historical claims have been debunked. During Barton‘s radio show this week, he talked about how we are a health conscious nation, banning trans-fats, taxing cigarettes and so-on. So naturally, Mr. Barton sees the next step.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID BARTON, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Homosexual/bisexual individuals are seven times more likely to contemplate or commit suicide. That doesn‘t sound very healthy. Homosexuals die decades earlier than heterosexuals. That doesn‘t sound healthy.
Nearly one half of practicing homosexuals admit to 500 or more sex partners and nearly one third admit to 1,000 or more sex partners in a lifetime.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: There‘s a lot of so-called facts in there and figures, and you‘ll notice Dr. Barton does not tell you where he got them. Folks at the “Huffington Post” did some digging and it seems that he‘s citing Paul Cameron, a psychologist and sex researcher who was kicked out of the American Psychological Association for failing to cooperate with its committee during an investigation into his research.
But it seems the crux of his argument is this: the lifestyle of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people causes depression and high suicide rates.
But Professor Barton, you should pause to consider how the homophobia and easily flowing hatred from people like you might contribute to that suicide rate. Take the tragic end of Rutgers University freshman Tyler Clementi; after video of his sexual encounter with another man was put on the web by people who think that sort of thing is as funny as you do, the 18-year-old posted a message on Facebook reading, “jumping off the GW Bridge. Sorry.”
Then he went to the George Washington Bridge and stepped off. If it is suicide you want to stop, please go to Alaska and close it down. It has the highest suicide rate of any state in the union. Save them, Professor Barton. You can do it.
If they‘ll listen to Sarah Palin, surely they‘ll listen to a scholar like you.
We‘ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: He was known as the Maverick, reveled in that for years, used it in his presidential campaign. But now, after 30 years in politics, he‘s finally getting the hang of the system and following his party in lock step, using their talking points word for word and leaving everyone, friend and foe alike, wondering, what the—happened to John McCain?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. HAYWORTH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: You know, it‘s really sad to see John McCain, who should be revered as a statesman, basically reduced to a political shape shifter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: In a new “Vanity Fair” “The Man Who Never Was,” national editor Todd Purdum looks at whether the McCain we think we knew ever really existed, and the lasting legacy of Sarah Palin that he never intended to leave. Todd Purdum joins me now from Washington, D.C.
Todd, in the article, you quote McCain‘s former press secretary, Tory Clark, as saying I think a fair number of people who have worked with him over the years look at him and what he has to do to win this campaign and say, is it really worth it? He seems to be sacrificing some of the principles he‘s held on to in the past. How did this McCain version we‘re seeing now come to be?
TODD PURDUM, “VANITY FAIR”: It grew out of expediency. A year ago, he was afraid that he might really lose his seat to former Congressman J.D. Hayworth, who was twice informally voted amongst the dumbest members of Congress. But because of the angry mood of the electorate and the angry mood of people around the country, including Arizona, he seemed vulnerable.
So he quickly toed the line on all the important Republican issues.
He became a vigorous opponent of President Obama‘s health care proposal. He dropped his support for climate change legislation. He greatly altered his view of immigration. And he more or less did a 180 on gays in the military. So he really—he changed almost everything that he stood for.
O‘DONNELL: Now, you have quoted McCain himself in the article as saying “I‘ve always done whatever‘s necessary to win.” Isn‘t that the organizing principle of his behavior then and now?
PURDUM: Well, I guess part of what I explore in this piece is whether, in fact, it hasn‘t, in fact, always been the organizing principle of his politics. And he looked like more of a Maverick than he really was. I mean, his voting record is overwhelmingly conservative throughout his time in the Senate and the House before that.
But because he took spectacular fights—I mean, he waged a heck of a fight on campaign finance with parties. He opposed President Bush‘s first round of tax cuts. He certainly tangled with President Bush over the conduct of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. He looked as if he were much more independent and mavericky than he might really have been.
What those things were partly driven by was personal distaste for President Bush.
O‘DONNELL: Now, you say that it may be that his lasting political legacy is the Palin extravaganza, Sarah Palin, Todd Palin, Levi Johnston, the entire soap opera and the political force, if we can call it that, of Sarah Palin. Does he realize how big a mistake that was? I mean, not only did he choose an unqualified person to be vice president or possibly president of the United States, but he has sent her into the Republican party where she is really messing up the way they do business.
PURDUM: I have to say I think he absolutely does realize it. And I think he‘s absolutely powerless to acknowledge it or do anything about it, because if he acknowledged it, he would essentially, you know, vaporize himself and make himself a non-entity in Republican politics and, you know, in American life.
But I think part of what explains some of his grouchy behavior over the past year is just that. He knows that when it came to the first important choice any presidential candidate makes, choice of a running mate, he really blew it.
O‘DONNELL: Todd Purdum of “Vanity Fair,” the article is available now. Thanks for your time tonight, Todd.
PURDUM: Thanks, Lawrence. Always good to talk to you.
O‘DONNELL: You can have THE LAST WORD online at our blog, TheLastWord.MSNBC.com. And you can follow my occasional Tweets @Lawrence. That‘s tonight‘s LAST WORD. “COUNTDOWN” is up next.
END
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